Any advice please? Seriously punchy horse! *Updated*

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fort_falcon
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Postby fort_falcon » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:46 am

:shock: wow...never expected such a response/debate!!!

Well, i was told by my boss today, that Taps, WAS still a bit lunchy before we moved yards...I know, I know, this is a pretty major point that I neglected to mention before!!!

But it was never BAD, where we were training before, ALL the horses were a bit punchy going to work, simply because the layout of the training center are just so bad. when we moved to Clairwood (current premises) he DId settle down, and then started his current behaviour.

Anyway>> back to the present, we DID change his routine slightly today, took him 3rd string...the 3rd string horses don't go the walking ring, they just trot down to the jumpoff point and then canter roughly 1600m on a circlular "inside" track. It's quite hard to describe what Clairwood looks like but I'm going to post a pic on Y!Photos...and then leave a link here for you to see.

He worked really well, didn't give any of hios usual trouble...so maybe that's the answer?

I've now ocmpletely lost track of my thought processes...so I'll post again soon :roll:
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."

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fort_falcon
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Postby fort_falcon » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:24 am

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7196868@N0 ... datetaken/

Okay, hopefully I haven't broken any rules here, but that link above SHOULD take you to an aerial pic of Clairwood...I've colour coded (very badly) the 2 different tracks we work on, and the openings etc.

ummm...I don't even know what "tarping is" so can't comment on that. I do have a very firm belief though that brute force/sever physical discipline is an absolute LAST resort...and in all honesty, IMO, if it's gone that far then really, it's best to just retire the horse... things should NEVER be allowed to get as bad as that, which is why I posted my cry for help in the first place!!!:)

He could very well be bored, and I have mentioned this on several occasions...I believe that Taps is pretty intelligent, and changing his routine as often as possible would probably do him the world of good, unfortunately though there aren't many options available in that regard.

Yes, I'm pretty certain that both testicles were removed, but again, I'll have to get our vet to check that out too.

I said in my previous post that Taps has always been a little bit punchy - he would "stick up" going to work, but never anything HALF as dramatic as what it's become now, and we would usually just get a spare hand - usually myself - to lead him out the ring, then he would trot off quite happily (in the company of another horse). All that's happening now is more than likely a development of what was happening then, but since he seemed to quiet down after moving to Clairwood we never thought anything of it, until all this!

But having said that, i do agree with BJ> 9 times out of 10 there IS a physical problem when a horse suddenly starts misbehaving for no apparent reason...I've seen it often myself. Our vet did look at the horse this morning, and he couldn't find anything obvious, but I never thought to ask about the gelding, so when my vet comes again on tuesday ill ask him, and ill also take blood and see about maybe scoping the horse.

I also agree that trying to force horses to work through their pain is NOT the right way to go...got to find the problem first, sometimes horses who have been hurt in the past suffer from "phantom" pain....We've had several horses come from yards where they've been abused, and even though now they're physically sound and healthy, they still remember the pain. a good example is one filly, she was raced ALOT as a juvenile, even though she was so sore (her trainer was to skint to get the vet) so anyway, in her last juvie race she chipped both front knees...the b****** raced her again 2 weeks later, and - surprise surprise - she refused to jump...and only THEN did he decide to send her away....to cut a long story short, the filly eventually ended up with us - she's now 4 and has won 3 races for us....purely because we look after her and don't "grass" her or anything like that....but to this day she's exceptionally difficult in the gates, and i believe it's because she "remebers" the pain of racing...so as a result she'll be retired at the end of march...her owners (who absolutely adore her *not the ones who had her originally*) want to give her one more run....i must stress the fact that she is 100% sound in her knees - we have our vet to check them regularly, and she's always had up to 14 days after a run where she's just been handwalked or put in a paddock.

back to Taps, will post a pic of him tomorrow....

[/img]
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."

BJ
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Postby BJ » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:51 pm

fort_falcon wrote:
He could very well be bored, and I have mentioned this on several occasions...I believe that Taps is pretty intelligent, and changing his routine as often as possible would probably do him the world of good, unfortunately though there aren't many options available in that regard...


That could be too! I have a very smart gelding that gets bored easily...actually, what am I saying...all my horses get bored easily :roll: :wink: They think they have a sense of humor and like to make sure the boy is paying attention, and ate his Wheaties that day. But I think that is a sign they are feeling good, not upset or hurting. And a firm but KIND hand, and well balanced boy, will handle that just fine. No need for taking the fun out of the process for the horse, as some might suggest.

So, IMO, a little play is something you want to maintain, so you KNOW when the horse is coming up tired or off. All are good ways to know when something ISN'T right. I think a horse will give more of itself, when ALLOWED to feel good about itself...just my opinion.

fort_falcon wrote:I said in my previous post that Taps has always been a little bit punchy - he would "stick up" going to work, but never anything HALF as dramatic as what it's become now, and we would usually just get a spare hand - usually myself - to lead him out the ring, then he would trot off quite happily (in the company of another horse).


I think I need and English to American terminology translator. :wink:

fort_falcon wrote:But having said that, i do agree with BJ> 9 times out of 10 there IS a physical problem when a horse suddenly starts misbehaving for no apparent reason...I've seen it often myself. Our vet did look at the horse this morning, and he couldn't find anything obvious, but I never thought to ask about the gelding, so when my vet comes again on tuesday ill ask him, and ill also take blood and see about maybe scoping the horse.

I also agree that trying to force horses to work through their pain is NOT the right way to go...got to find the problem first, sometimes horses who have been hurt in the past suffer from "phantom" pain....We've had several horses come from yards where they've been abused, and even though now they're physically sound and healthy, they still remember the pain. a good example is one filly, she was raced ALOT as a juvenile, even though she was so sore (her trainer was to skint to get the vet) so anyway, in her last juvie race she chipped both front knees...the b****** raced her again 2 weeks later, and - surprise surprise - she refused to jump...and only THEN did he decide to send her away....to cut a long story short, the filly eventually ended up with us - she's now 4 and has won 3 races for us....purely because we look after her and don't "grass" her or anything like that....but to this day she's exceptionally difficult in the gates, and i believe it's because she "remebers" the pain of racing...so as a result she'll be retired at the end of march...her owners (who absolutely adore her *not the ones who had her originally*) want to give her one more run....i must stress the fact that she is 100% sound in her knees - we have our vet to check them regularly, and she's always had up to 14 days after a run where she's just been handwalked or put in a paddock.

back to Taps, will post a pic of him tomorrow....

[/img]


I could tell you were smart when you cared enough to search for answers! 8) Sounds like you already knew what to do, but just needed verification of your own instincts! :wink:
Last edited by BJ on Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KAL
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Postby KAL » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:14 pm

I am certain this post will be absolutely useless, but since I completely understand your frustration...

This critters problems could be anything. It is so hard to have any good ideas unless time is spent actually observing the issue and his behavior. Also, I'm pretty certain I am experiencing some phrase-iology issues... some of that which you are explaining is somewhat difficult for me to fully imagine.

However, despite the complete lack of full understanding, despite the lack of being able to observe the problem... I'll post some ideas... just like several others have done. Although, I'll try not to have you spend time or money, or potentially make the horse worse (who in their right mind tries to use discipline to correct behaviors when they don't have any idea what is at the root of the issue... talk about a great way to ruin a critter... any critter... that is just dumb, plain dumb.)

When you say "stick-up" is this what we would call "refuse"? Is he getting to a certain point and just refusing (or attempting to refuse) to go further? If so, has anyone taken him by himself to that point (both with rider and without) and let him just stand there?

I'd try to find a time when there is very, very limited action. If he doesn't have an issue when by himself, then the problem probably isn't physical. This would suggest something is amiss with his interactions with his peers.

If he simply stops, don't push him, watch him... allow him time... may take a very long time... try to keep him calm and not act-up. Hopefully, he'll get bored and eventually go forward on his own accord. It may take a time or two, and don't be surprised if at first he seems calm and then starts to get worked up. This behavior might indicate that he wants to be "asked" to work not "forced". Also, he might be having some confusion issues with what is being asked. Again, impossible to really tell without being there and trying different things.

If he stops, starts to act-up, and continues to act-up, and/or the problem escalates then I'd lean toward looking for some type of physical problem, of course, we also might be talking about some type of "learned" response that will take some quality horsemanship to overcome.

My biggest concern is that you say he seems to shy away from other horses. Does he do this when worked? Is he shying or is he wanting to go ahead of his partners and resenting (fighting his rider) not being allowed to do so?

When he goes out with the string, has he ever been allowed to lead the string out? How did he react? (I know... last thing anyone wants is a bad actor at the FRONT... can cause a real mess.)

Look forward to more info... and look forward to seeing how this guy progresses. Good luck and best wishes.

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Postby horsenuts » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:42 pm

fort_falcon wrote:http://www.flickr.com/photos/7196868@N06/407955210/in/datetaken/

Okay, hopefully I haven't broken any rules here, but that link above SHOULD take you to an aerial pic of Clairwood...I've colour coded (very badly) the 2 different tracks we work on, and the openings etc.

ummm...I don't even know what "tarping is" so can't comment on that. I do have a very firm belief though that brute force/sever physical discipline is an absolute LAST resort...and in all honesty, IMO, if it's gone that far then really, it's best to just retire the horse... things should NEVER be allowed to get as bad as that, which is why I posted my cry for help in the first place!!!:)

He could very well be bored, and I have mentioned this on several occasions...I believe that Taps is pretty intelligent, and changing his routine as often as possible would probably do him the world of good, unfortunately though there aren't many options available in that regard.

Yes, I'm pretty certain that both testicles were removed, but again, I'll have to get our vet to check that out too.

I said in my previous post that Taps has always been a little bit punchy - he would "stick up" going to work, but never anything HALF as dramatic as what it's become now, and we would usually just get a spare hand - usually myself - to lead him out the ring, then he would trot off quite happily (in the company of another horse). All that's happening now is more than likely a development of what was happening then, but since he seemed to quiet down after moving to Clairwood we never thought anything of it, until all this!

But having said that, i do agree with BJ> 9 times out of 10 there IS a physical problem when a horse suddenly starts misbehaving for no apparent reason...I've seen it often myself. Our vet did look at the horse this morning, and he couldn't find anything obvious, but I never thought to ask about the gelding, so when my vet comes again on tuesday ill ask him, and ill also take blood and see about maybe scoping the horse.

I also agree that trying to force horses to work through their pain is NOT the right way to go...got to find the problem first, sometimes horses who have been hurt in the past suffer from "phantom" pain....We've had several horses come from yards where they've been abused, and even though now they're physically sound and healthy, they still remember the pain. a good example is one filly, she was raced ALOT as a juvenile, even though she was so sore (her trainer was to skint to get the vet) so anyway, in her last juvie race she chipped both front knees...the b****** raced her again 2 weeks later, and - surprise surprise - she refused to jump...and only THEN did he decide to send her away....to cut a long story short, the filly eventually ended up with us - she's now 4 and has won 3 races for us....purely because we look after her and don't "grass" her or anything like that....but to this day she's exceptionally difficult in the gates, and i believe it's because she "remebers" the pain of racing...so as a result she'll be retired at the end of march...her owners (who absolutely adore her *not the ones who had her originally*) want to give her one more run....i must stress the fact that she is 100% sound in her knees - we have our vet to check them regularly, and she's always had up to 14 days after a run where she's just been handwalked or put in a paddock.

back to Taps, will post a pic of him tomorrow....

I wish you luck... sounds like he is balking("stick up" as you say) and then really throws a hissy as he is heading towards the track so once again a top rider is called for(if you can find one which is often hard to do). I'm not saying the current rider is poor or bad simply that this horse has become a handful and knows he can pull this "stuff" with current rider as he now does regularly. The horse needs to get his mind on business as opposed to throwing fits. The first time he tries that with a top rider he'll be met with a different result... and in all likely hood prick up his ears realizing he's no longer calling the shots and come to his milk pretty quickly. A top rider can sit right between a horse when he's cutting up while also correcting him and go on about his business in short order.


Many top trainers are sticklers against this type behavior and claim particular horses off other stables they know have behavior issues. And once said behavior is addressed and corrected the horse often has a dramatic turn around in performance. Getting a horses mind right and on his business(training and running) is a major part of the battle.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir on this and don't misunderstand I'm not talking about "brutalizing" the animal rather a top rider/cowboy can straigten out bad habits very quickly and the sooner the better. If a top rider is not available lots of extra work put in with the horse may pay off and that sounds like what you are now doing.

Good luck

[/img]

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Postby fort_falcon » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:21 am

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7196868@N06/?saved=1

There's a link to some photo's of Taps and a couple of the other horses in the yard.

BJ>>I agree playtime is a necessity for any horse..be it in racing or whatever. But he really IS taking it to an extreme level. But I think we're working on that now!!! So we'll see....

KAL>> no any and all comments are welcome! We have a filly who does exactly what you describe....sometimes she just stops on her way to work, and it doesn't matter WHAT you do she simply refuses to budge!!! again - she's a highly intelligent horse (sometimes too many brains for her own good IMO)..and we've figured out that you just have to leave her and she'll take herself off to work when she feels like it...of course, I started her in, and during that time, my idiot groom decided to get on her back while i wasn't there, and we strongly suspect that she fell with him or something, because the next day when we put the saddle on her, she just started running backwards and fell over *again?*...this was about 2 years ago...and none of us thought we'd ever get her to the training track, let alone a race....now she's run so many seconds she's earned the equivalent of 3 wins!!! but it took me a good 3 months to get her right again.

back to Taps> i really couldn't say, when you watch him working in a pair he SEEMS to be hanging/shying away from the other horse, and not trying to get ahead...his rider tells me that he DOESNT pull...but then, unless I actually got on his back and rode him I couldn't say for sure....and I'm not a workrider, so I'm not about to try...i leave that to the professionals.

Horsenuts>>I agree....gtting the mind right is the biggest part of the battle...In the 2 years+ ive been with this yard we've had SO many "difficult" horses come in...my boss has a reputation for fixing bad-legged horses and one's with mental problems (both of which are usually caused by ignorance)

Unfortunately there is a distinct LACK of truly good riders...If it was that he had a problem in the ring (for eg) then I could fix him..that's what I specialise in...schooling and "starting" (i find the term "breaking" to be a complete misnomer)...but as I said before, I'm not a workrider, and that's where his problem lies...the only person I would trust enough to be capable on him and work him out of his naughtiness is in Krea at the moment....and hopefully by the time she gets back we'll have to problem sorted...thanks for the luck though...we could do with a bit of that right now!!!:)
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."

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Postby fort_falcon » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:39 am

Just a quick update on Taps....he's working alot better now. Had him checked out by the vet, the chiro, the physio and the dentist and all clear!!! so definately mental. Anyways, he's going to work alot easier now, that is to say, he's not throwing himself around the way he was, still sticks up, but as I said, alot better.

He's been nominated to run on the 20 of this month...so will let you know how he goes!!!
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."

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Postby Toccet02 » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:43 am

What changed, if anything?
His routine?
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Postby fort_falcon » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:08 am

Sorry, guess I should have been a little more specific. We've been mostly working him 3rd string because the horses just trot straight down to work, and don't ring in the walking ring. gives him less time to think about being naughty. the only time he comes 1st or 2nd sting is when he's going to do pacework and then that's only twice a week.and, weather and track day permitting we try to alternate those days so it's not the same time or the same track. basically just trying to keep his work schedule as varied as possible.
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."

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Postby fort_falcon » Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:04 am

Image

This is a pic of him in his first race today...he ran so well, and his jock came back with a really positive report!!! sO we're really happy, and yeah, this is just to let you all know that he's finally going on the right track in his work...he was so laid back today, didn't bat an eyelid!!!:)[/img]
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."

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Postby Tairaterces » Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:21 am

Hi Fort Falcon,

After re-reading all that you have written seems like he was just testing you'all . . . . . . . . being a bit of a rebel . . . . . . so it seems he figured out he wasn't going to win the war of minds and decided he wants to be a race horse . . . . . .

So with that being said . . . good racing luck to Taps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tairaterces
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Postby fort_falcon » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:54 am

Well...it's been almost a year since I posted about old Taps...he's now four...lol. and he FINALLY WON A RACE!!! *happy dancing* in May last year he injured his back rolling in the box, so that took 3 months out of his training....we gave him a run about 4.5 months after the injury and then, he got cast in his box and re-injured himself (not as badly though) and was out of training for 2 months...he's run a few places etc....but then we were also battling to find his "distance"...on his pedigree he should have been a sprinter...anyways, last sunday (23.03)he won his first race!!! but easily! as you can see by the pic....


Image

Image
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."

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Postby ratherrapid » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:01 pm

good job and congrats, Falcon! were you able to resolve the behavior problems?

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Postby fort_falcon » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:07 pm

yeah, well, kind of....he still has his moments, and you never really know, when he walks out his box if he's going to have a "good" or a "bad" day....lol, but at least he goes to work...mostly, there's certain openings on the tracks that he WONT go to without ALOT of persuasion...but, on the whole, a HUGE improvement!
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."

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Postby Linda_d » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:37 pm

Congrats, Falcon! It sounds like he's had a bit of tough run of luck, but maybe he's now turned it all around!!! :D