Why is there silence

[Foggytrip]

Maybe Tabor is sending you a barn full to train BDW.

[llbean]

And thirdly, why wouldn't a horse need a race coming back off a 3 month layoff where she was battling a very serious viral condition???

The Tempature was only slightly elavated, the kind of thing that can easily come from random variation or a tiny wisp of an infection that was SUCCESSFULLY fought off very quickly, and now you're saying it was a very serious viral condition??

It seems to me that either you're wrong here or Pletcher went out of his way to keep the public in the dark.

-llbean

[bdw0617]

I'm really pissed.. this has nothing to do with me dislking anyone... this piss poor excuse of a horseman is having more fun playing with the media than he is worried about the damn care of a horse everyone cars too much about to get cranked, and she injuries herself giving her heart out, simply becuase she wasn't in shape to run a grade 1 race. Yeah I'm Livid. what if it was worse? Thank god she is just being retired. Look at the race again, turning in the stretch look at her head, cocked all the way towards the grandsctand... that right there should have told you something was wrong.


just look at her last two works going into the race. don't tell me there wasn't something already up with her.. her workouts have gotten progressivly WORSE since Belmont. her last two works were 5 Furlongs in damn near 1:03 and 6 Furlongs in damn near 1:15.

alot of you don't seem to understand the "need a race" theory. To get to the point where you need a race, you have to be tuned up in training first, something Rags wasn't done. When you are off for 3 months, you are basically starting from scratch conditioning wise again. espically with all the breaks she has had over the last 3 months.

It's just like playing basketball.. we could run drills until the cows came home, but there was only a certain amount of shape practice could get you in. That first 1 or 2 games we were always sucking air after the game, in timeouts, in half time. But to get to the point where we could even go a full game, we had to give it out all in practice, otherwise I'd be calling for a sub 3 minutes in the first quarter.

In contrast to his other fillies, who he doesn't get the limelight with, look at octave... workouts are as sharp as a tack... you can tell she's getting cranked to do something.

You guys wonder why I am not a fan of the man.. this is why. it has nothing to do with the horse stock he has... it's this. he's a fvcking egotistical butcher and the only thing he cares about is getting him fvcking face in front of a camera.

there was no doubt in my mind as of 2 weeks ago how this was going to play out.

I said it all along, A grade 1 race, it just moves too fast, for you to use it as a "workout" race. there is a certain amount of form, condition that has to be had to compete.. which rags didn't have. If she didn't have it, F it.. just train up to the Distaff, to hell with what everyone else is saying. I wanted to see her in the Ruffian but that was assuming she was right.. she wasn't... She was still about 2 works away, 2 solid works away from beingt able to race.


Look at CN and Street Sense. it has gotten to the point I can tell you when SS is going ot race before a press release comes out. The 1:04 workouts get tuned down to about 1:01. the 52 workouts get cranked up to about 49 flat... Race shape. I got a workout in my email this morning before I went to bed. 4F, 49.. he's getting ready to race... he's goin to get one more of thoose, maybe at 5F instead of 4 and he's good to go.


This is why Todd pletcher is a damn butcher. this is why all of his horses that are worth a damn can't make it though his rigors.. Get your ass out the damn newspaper and figure out what the FVCK is wrong with your filly and fix it.

this has nothing to do with anything than the world being robbed of a once ina life time fily because of an inept trainer

[Rokeby Forever]

It seems to me that either you're wrong here or Pletcher went out of his way to keep the public in the dark.

-llbean

BINGO, Ilbean!

Let's look at it this way....she's a Pletcher three year old that's lasted for seven starts. At least half of Pletcher's three year olds that started training last year have never even made it to the races - The Green Monkey finally made a start.

To those that think I'm bashing - Pletcher started out with a minimum of 200 two year olds in 2006...he's has only 107 foals of 2004 to race for him. Where are the other (at the VERY least) 93? Dead?

[Foggytrip]

BDW that may be one of the most ignorant posts ever made on this board. To suggest Pletcher knew there was a serious injury and ran a filly like Rags to Riches through it is ridiculous.

She notoriously doesnt need a lot of work. You think he should have posted a couple bullets with a filly coming back from an infection? You know those antibiotics they give for that stuff will knock a horse out, it takes time for them to get back to 100 percent. You dont drill a horse fresh off any kind of infection, whether it be slight, or severe.

Its very easy to be a Monday morning QB. Remember though, this guy is in the barn at 4 in the morning with all his horses, he knows these animals alot better than you do. He does whats right by them, and if he ran her rest assured she was 100 percent sound going in.

You dont knowingly run a multi multi multi million dollar champion with fractures

[Rokeby Forever]

Why was she brought to the paddock back in July when she had the first "virus"and returned to the barn...don't trainers take temperatures in the morning any more?

[Foggytrip]

Roke, I would say half take a morning temp. Generally its not checked until they cough, drip, or dont go as usual. Ive been in and out of hundreds of barns and I would say half, if even, take a daily temp.

[bdw0617]

BDW that may be one of the most ignorant posts ever made on this board. To suggest Pletcher knew there was a serious injury and ran a filly like Rags to Riches through it is ridiculous.

She notoriously doesnt need a lot of work. You think he should have posted a couple bullets with a filly coming back from an infection? You know those antibiotics they give for that stuff will knock a horse out, it takes time for them to get back to 100 percent. You dont drill a horse fresh off any kind of infection, whether it be slight, or severe.

Its very easy to be a Monday morning QB. Remember though, this guy is in the barn at 4 in the morning with all his horses, he knows these animals alot better than you do. He does whats right by them, and if he ran her rest assured she was 100 percent sound going in.

You dont knowingly run a multi multi multi million dollar champion with fractures

my post is igornant?

foggy, let me break down what you are saying

e notoriously doesn't need a lot of work.

I even said in this thread earlier, she doesn't need a bunch of sharp works, that's not how Rag's roll. never has been. But stop using black and white arguments... a 1:01 is not a bullet, that's what she normal works. when I see a 5F workout going into a grade 1 in 1:04 damn near, I scratch my head. with the proceeding workout in 1:15

Hard spun working 57 and change is a bullet. Everything ran in 12 secs per furlong is not a bullet workout.



BUT....her works were about normal a month ago. About. The last two have been abysmal for her. This coming from someone that has followed her since January back in SoCal. She can jog backwards 6F 1:15... but she's working these and T Pletch calls it a "good hard workout". NO... it was obvious that she wasn't READY to be thrown out, in her first start in 100 days, into a grade 1 race. The fractions she has to run, her competitive nature, it's too much to ask for a filly who is not even in race shape.

Its very easy to be a Monday morning QB.

considering I was screaming the same thing on this forum 3 weeks ago, you might want to call me a Wednesday AFternoon QB

You dont knowingly run a multi multi multi million dollar champion with fractures

and you don't run AnY horse, either it be a 5k claimer or a 100 million dollar potential stud, that's can injure him or her self because they aren't in race shape.

[bdw0617]

my gripe isnt' anything that happened back "then".. i've given up trying to figure out what happened.

But, considering she was given 100 days off, her training oging into a GRADE 1 was 100% inadquate. that's my concern, and that lack of training is the reason she is retired now.\

that's why I'm pissed off.

Look at how Carl Handled Street Sense after his BC Juve win. a longer layoff than what we are harping about now. He worked the damn horse for 2 months STRAIGHT. the last 3 or 4 were extremely sharp works, lke 48 flat works... and when eh came back he STILL wasn't anywhere near Grade 1 shape. he needed a race, which was the Tampa Bay Derby.

and I don't think he was still fully cranked going itno the Blue grass.

It's why CN is 2/3 in the derby and Pletcher is winless

He needed thoose races just to be able to nose out AGS in a grade 3..

what was done here, was the equivalent of taking half thoose works out, and throwing SS in the Bluegrass and expecting him to win because he's well, Street Sense. Not only when you do that, do you take the horses chances of winning away, with his or her competitive nature, you put their lives in danger.

[Foggytrip]

The argument is if he knows his horse better than you. Im going to go out on a limb and say yes, he probably does. She doesnt need work, he kept her fresh. She was going to need a race regardless prior to the BC, win, lose, or draw the mission would have been accomplished had she not gotten hurt. My guess is she was 90 percent fit and fresh, this race would have set her up perfect for what he wanted to do. He trained her perfectly into the race, and he trained her perfect around her hiccup. His hard training, or lackthereof had nothing to do with her gettng hurt in the race.

[Rokeby Forever]

Roke, I would say half take a morning temp. Generally its not checked until they cough, drip, or dont go as usual. Ive been in and out of hundreds of barns and I would say half, if even, take a daily temp.

Have things changed that much? Mr Miller had temperatures taken before ANY horse went out to the track. Pletcher, who supposedly is detail oriented, doesn't even bother? With all due respect...what kind of crap is that? 2007 Horsemanship?

Maybe that explains why only half his stock (or less) makes it to the races.

[bdw0617]

it has absolutely nothing to do with him knowing the horse better than me. Hell I would hope he would. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you take 3 months off, you aren't in shape anymore. Ask any trainer here and I bet they will verify that. It has everything to do with me handicapping races for the last 12 years, and knowing what I'm used to seeing before a horse makes a return to the races, espically in grade 1's or even graded stakes period, and what I saw out of Rag's to riches is a recipe for disaster.

Races are used to get a horse in a type of shape that workouts can't give you. not to get the horse in shape period.

Let's say for instance even if she was taking it lightly going around..WHY??? she hasn't raced in 3 months.. she needs the screws tighted, not a light jog around the damn track.


this is what's wrong with racing. this is not a vendetta I have against todd and he's part of the problem, and he's not a savior to the sport. When people like him mistrain a horse and they break down, it's "the dirt track" and we spend 9 million dollars on tracks we don't need, because ovbiously "todd couldn't do any wrong, he poops gold nuggets"

e doesnt need work, he kept her fresh.

galloping around the track for 3 months in the morning is not race shape. You use gallops to keep you "fresh" when you are already in race shape. if you haven't raced in 3 months you aren't in race shape any more. that's the whole idea behind CN letting SS gallop a mile after each race.

training a horse is very similar to getting a human in shape. when you get into that prime condition, works and gallops are used not to get you in "more shape" but to keep you sharp.

that's like say, when HS basketball season used to be over in March, when I played AAU basketball in June or July, although I still played pickup ball from now and then, it's not the same type of shape..

My guess is she was 90 percent fit and fresh

No, i'm about to show you multlip examples of a horse who is still a month away from the race he's being pointed to, and is a horse that is known not to be a fast morning worker

09/16/2007 CD 4F :48.60 Dirt Fast B 09/11/2007 CD 5F 1:02.80 Dirt Fast B 08/21/2007 SAR 5F 1:00.14 Dirt Fast B 08/15/2007 SAR 5F :59.68 Dirt Fast B 08/08/2007 SAR 4F :49.03 Dirt Sloppy

Thoose are treet sense's last works.

I think the Travers was on what the 5th? notice how a consistant mutitude of decent works are in place. not one of these are bullets. This is what a Grade 1 calibur horse in the morning should be able to do and not break a sweat. This is what he uses to get to then use the Travers, the Masscap or whatever his next race is, as "preps" to get ready for his goal, the BC Classic. Going into the BC Classic, you are going to see 3 works, all probably 5F with the last one sharp as a tack in hand.

09/08/2007 BEL 5F :59.81 Dirt Fast B
09/02/2007 SAR 5F 1:01.16 Dirt Fast B
08/27/2007 SAR 3F :37.39 Dirt Fast B

These workouts belone to none other than Discreet Cat. who hasn't seen a race track since March 31st. And they have said multiple times they are using the Grade 1 on Sept 30th as a prep for the BC Mile or Classic.

This is what I mean by a workout can only get you into certain amount of shape.. but you have to get the most out of thoose workouts before you can be thrown to the wolves.

09/08/2007 BEL 6F 1:14.80 Dirt Fast B
09/02/2007 SAR 5F 1:02.63 Dirt Fast B 08/19/2007 SAR 5F 1:00.50 Dirt Fast B 08/12/2007 SAR 5F 1:02.11 Dirt Fast B

These are the workouts of none other than Rags to Riches

Not only are none of her workouts really great, the one time she was pressed on 8/19/07, SHE HAD TO MISS HER NEXT TRAINING SESSION

but yes this is a filly whoose ready to tackle a grade 1 Race.

Try again

[Georgerz]

There are a zillion reasons why Mr. Pletcher is the trainer, and not the couch potatoes than won't quit blabbering about stuff that they don't have first hand knowledge.

[Foggytrip]

First of all when a horse is sound and laid off they dont go on stall rest. That filly was galloped, jogged, and probably asked to run every seventh day. Just because a clocker doesnt get a horse working, doesnt mean the horse isnt putting in an effort, or blowing. The general public has absolutely no clue how to gauge a workout pattern, how often horse works, or how many go undetected. You also have works clocked from the wrong poles. If you arent there in the morning to watch those works you really have no idea whats going on.

Her slow 5/8ths work was probably a bullet half clocked on the gallop out, her slow 6 was probably a 5/8ths clocked on the gallop out. There is noway for you to know that. What you should know is Pletcher is a master horseman, and he wouldnt send a zillion dollar filly to a race unprepared. She was at the very least 90 percent racing fit, which is all any of them need to be. I know it may be hard to believe but you dont get paid for running fast in the mornings

Rags to Riches could tackle a grade one at 75% fit. The idea that she was injured because of her lack of fitness is silly.

[Rokeby Forever]

There are a zillion reasons why Mr. Pletcher is the trainer, and not the couch potatoes than won't quit blabbering about stuff that they don't have first hand knowledge.

Stealing all of Lukas's clients helped, I would think. Says a lot about ol' Dwayne that Pletcher was able to do that. LOL!

On September 3rd, George wrote of Rags and The Leopard:

In the Blood Horse article, it doesn't say anywhere that he got trashed or even just outrun in the workout. This is a 2yr old working in company with one of the best 3yr old fillies, and classic winner.

link: http://racing.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40574

Only 12 days later, both ran themselves into the Pletcher crapper. Any report of The Leopard hairline fracturing anything (yet)?

Foggy - in this article on 9/3, Pletcher said that Rags didn't miss much and had "a high level of fitness." What went wrong in the last 12 days...if Pletcher knows his horses like people on this thread believe that he does? Why would people think she'd need a race if ol' Pletcher said that he had her fit?

Damn, my spelling stinks! LOL!