Santa Anita: hell in a handbasket

[Worksoplad]

Well, obviously Roke thinks there's some merit to synthetics from a safety/reduction in number of breakdowns point of view in spite of what he's said out of the other corner of his mouth because here's what he just said on another thread:

"Tiznow stands for $30,000 in 2008, and if you race on artificials, he's worth every penny. He probably would have been a tremendous boost to the California breeding program for that reason, but there was no way that California was going to be able to stand him (sorry, Fastappy).

The rap on Tiznows is that they don't stay sound for too long, but since they like the artificials, maybe they'll last longer if they race on them more often."

[bdw0617]

lol, I remember reading that post, as it was one I started.....roke is on his own on that one lol.

my stance is nto really the breakdowns. my stance is that to spend 20 million dollars and get no better results than you have is pitiful.

the new cushion track was supposed to slow horses down, not make them run 1:02 and 1 in 5F maiden special weight races.

my other point is that anything that makes horse racing harder for handicapping is hendering the game.

you don't know how many people I hear loving oaklawn and gulfsteram coming up....they all say the same "dirt tracks!!!"

I think instead of wasting their money, they should have taken a trip eto delaware park or saratoga and studied their tracks and their maintence programs.. I think delaware might have one of the best dirt tracks in the country.

[Tucumcari]

It has been my experience that they still don't, but they do like it. The Swiss Yodelers can't run in it and the Unusual Heats run on it.

The synthetics are interesting. You need to be very on top of every horse or "accidents" will happen. They do IMO mask some injuries. Maybe they don't develop bone density like conventional surfaces do and that's the reason for shins doing so well on them. Each synthetic has it's own "ailment" that are almost specific to the surface, again IMHO. Along with track bias' being different at each track. Hollywood might play the fairest, Del Mar... closers and Santa Anita at present is showing that speed can go hot fractions and carry.... All very different surfaces, all very different "battles" in the realm of soundness.

[Worksoplad]

"Oh silly me - none of this did happen to Santa Anita's Main track before it opened - it was smooth sailing, and will continue to be so. It's just "claptrap, lies, and innuendo!" "

And Santa Anita and GGF never had any breakdowns before they changed to synthetics either did they? They never had to perform major track renovations because of the surface before did they? Nor did any trainer ever complain about the surface before?

Still waiting for your survey results on the lack of breakdowns at Belmont and Saratoga Roke. It's taking a mighty long time.

your argurement ommits that california spent 20 million dollars to get the exact same thing.



Yes they had breakdowns before, that's not the point. they spent 20 million dollars to have the same breakdowns and loose customers, owners and trianers who don't like it in the process.

I don't know what roke was getting off on but it's a moot point. Belmont and Saratoga did not spend 20 million dollars, and change one of the most basic premises of horse racing in the name of saftey like California did

Who cares if the tracks paid $20m if the consensus among virtually all owners and trainers is that it has made the tracks safer?

Where do you get the idea that California has lost "customers, owners and trainers" from? The only owner I know who left California in a huff after an argument with the Del Mar track manager was Zayat, and he'll be back, don't you worry. If not, good riddance.

If you know of any others, let us know. Contrary to your false assertions, the field sizes are up, handle is up and breakdowns are down.

[Rokeby Forever]

The two catastrophic breakdowns at Saratoga this year were Massoud and Indian Flare. Two horses over a six week meet. My trainer didn't have any breakdowns over the meet, but he had some horses come back ouchy after Saratoga tightened up the track for the Whitney when Lawyer Ron broke the track record. He didn't have any horses injure themselves on the Oklahoma track, but some did run down badly and he knows of one horse (for the entire meet) that did fracture a sesamoid on it.

How does that compare to Del Mar's 2007 numbers? Or the three horses in one week on GG Tapeta listed above? Or the link about 2007 fall Keeneland that I posted?

How convenient, Work - breakdowns at Turf Paradise are because of the surface, but the breakdowns at GG are from "noname" trainers and were cheap horses. How many "name" trainers can you rattle off at Turf Paradise? How many horses there worth more than a nice plasma TV can you name?

Great obfuscation - GG had breakdowns before Tapeta, so what's the big deal that they're happening now? How about the expense of installing a surface that no one knows how to maintain and "eased and vanned off" comments continuing to come in clusters on the track, and nobody is holding Michael Dickinson accountable? Dickinson's surface plucked from a garbage can on "Home Improvement" is not only taking its toll on legs, but now horses are coughing their heads off because of the kickback. Should horses wear a surgical mask under a dropdown noseband to keep from inhaling the stuff? Oh...that kickback problem really doesn't exist - it yet another segment of "claptrap, lies, and innuendo."

Aqueduct's Winter track isn't safe - the bankrupt and incompetent NYRA hasn't put a dime into the surface in years and it's now a mine field that's held together on a day to day basis. What's GG's excuse? Cheap horses and "noname" trainers? You don't think that sore, badlegged horses trained by gypsies aren't at Aqueduct right now? Everyone knows that Aqueduct's surface is a disaster - it's been shut down 5 separate days this winter. But nobody is blaming the trainers or the horses. I guess doing that is a California thing.

As for my comment about Tiznow, I wrote "Maybe." But I know that it didn't help Ravel. It didn't help Belgravia. It didn't help Notional......

[bdw0617]

the worst q uestion of the year goes to workloadspeed:


Who cares if the tracks paid $20m if the consensus among virtually all owners and trainers is that it has made the tracks safer?


alot of people care. alot of people care because 20 million dollars is not chump change and it comes from places. that is money that could have been used to fix santa anita's backstretch. that is money that could have been used to up purses. that is money that could have been used for advertising. that is moneyt hat could have been used to do research on polytrack. that is money that could have been used to figure out how to deal with del mar's turf surface. that is money that could have been used to do more detailed resarch on the effect of steroids. that is money that could ahve been used to boost the california stallion program. I can go on all day long

there is alot of things that could have been done with the 20 million dollars. that would ahve seen DRASTIC improvments in the game. but 20 million dollars was spent on something that little to no research was done. in any other business that's a decision that would be paid for with the CEO's head on a platter.

Where do you get the idea that California has lost "customers, owners and trainers" from?

I suggest you go around reading other forums. handicappers aren't that happy. yes more horses are running on avg, I am not roke, I never said otherwise. but go to del mar's forum and see just how big of a clusterfuck del mar's meet was. I along with half the people there said F it about the middle of the meet. it's not worht it.

Who cares? I handicap for a living. it's messing wtih who I put food on the table. its' a pretty big deal to me. I can't bet santa anita until i have a feel for how it's playing, whereas last year this time I was in to my elbows into the races out there. that's lost revenue.

It's shooting yourslef in the foot when you dont' have to, because you think you might need to.

I suggest you pick up the last bloodhorse mag, it's free and it's online. it's dedicated to poly v. dirt. and there are a hell of alot of people, industry people who are against it.

And my point is, if you would actually read, is not necessary the polytrack. I actually kinda like hollywood. I've said that time and time again. I don't mind arlington park one bit. even tuc said hollywood park was the fairest of the tracks. Hollywood pakr and arlington park were the two that were done RiGHT. If done right, and by right I mean, it is a seemeless transfer over to cushion track without much notice of change, I am fine. horses aren't running 2-3 seconds faster on avg at hollywood park.

the breakdowns at del mar were not down. the breakdowns at arlingotn park were down from last year but up from 05.

[winds]

The problem with the synthetics is NO ONE TESTED IT in all of the different climates this country has. No research was done on it. Because it's been touted as the end all of racing surfaces trainers are sending horses with problems out to run, if they were on dirt, then the soreness would show and the horses wouldn't run.

If they are training on a giving surface and not sore on a daily basis, that doesn't mean the injury is gone. Since the horse isn't sore, it looks sound in front of the state vet. Hence it goes into the race. This isn't just the no name trainers, it happens to the big guys too.

My problem with the stuff is it wasn't tested properly, and for any length of time. For the powers that be at the tracks that believed Dickinson, that he tested it, HE'S SELLING IT. You don't think he'd lie?

No, for all it was supposed to do, it hasn't passed muster.

winds

[ZZTOPPERS]

I posted something similar a while ago, but it bears repeating here--Polytrack has been in place successfully for several years in the UK (and yes, I know, not every spot in the US has the same climate as the UK, but we're not that different in many other locations where synthetics are in place either) and they haven't had the same problems we've had. The first year Poly was installed at Turfway Park, it worked great, but them management started "tinkering" with it, reducing the kickback and making it faster, and the next winter the breakdowns began, and the injuries started climbing. I've been on the stuff at Lingfield, Turfway, Keeneland, and Keeneland's training track, and they're all different. I think we've modified it so much we don't know where the starting point was or should be.

[zinn21]

So far every owner and trainer I have talked to likes the Tapeta surface at GGF. My horses are stabled at Pleasanton and have not run any yet but my trainer and all his neighbors have shipped in, ran well, some winners and no breakdowns.

It rained last night and we would be running on a sealed dirt track but we have Tapeta and the track is virtually similar to the non rainy surface.

You don't seem to understand how hard a sealed dirt surface is on a horse. It is a virtual breakdown machine. Any artificial surface is superior to a sealed dirt surface. A well maintained dry fast dirt track and an artificial track, perhaps, is a break even proposition but artificial is a superior and safer track in wet weather-not even close..

[Rokeby Forever]

artificial is a superior and safer track in wet weather-not even close..

So it made a lot of sense planting the stuff in that rain forest of a region, Southern California? Does Del Mar in August have rain slicker giveaway days?

[bdw0617]

remember...It never rains in southern california

[Rokeby Forever]

If what Zinn wrote about artificials being safe in wet weather is true, I'm so glad that Southern Californians were on the ball and planted the stuff!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... sec=&spon=

Of course, the above link is just more "claptrap, lies, and innuendo."

[Worksoplad]

That does happen to be a 1997 article Roke. Can't you find anything more current?

[bdw0617]

recent rain in socal ended a DROUT. it doesn't rain in california. at least southern california. the winter meet this year (the last one) it rained all of (drumroll) 1 day the entire meet. there were a few days where it rained on monday or something like that but there was only one day where tracks were not fast. 1.

[Tucumcari]

For a place that doesn't rain, the forecast must be wrong.