Polytrack has ruined the Derby

[oliverstoned]

Well I was wrong actually Unbridled's Song ruined the Derby. Everybody notice how the polycrappers finished up the track. Polytack is artificial TURF thats why the Euros love it so much. Would have liked to see Tomocito and Hey Byrn in the race instead of a couple of those turfers.

[Shammy Davis]

Whirlaway posted:

Thanks for the laugh!

The joke is definitely on me. I get so confused. I'll go to the thread and re-introduce myself to your thoughts. I realize now who the Dr. Roman is.

After this Kentucky Derby weekend, I think we can all agree that safe tracks either dirt or synthetic are a must. Best wishes.

[Curlin]

Well I was wrong actually Unbridled's Song ruined the Derby. Everybody notice how the polycrappers finished up the track. Polytack is artificial TURF thats why the Euros love it so much. Would have liked to see Tomocito and Hey Byrn in the race instead of a couple of those turfers.

You forgot all the artificial surface horses who've won on the dirt this year. The Derby may be an important race, but it's only ONE of MANY.

Gayego, Arkansas Derby G2
Intangaroo, Humana Distaff, G1
Tiago, Oaklawn Handicap, G2, Heatseeker 2nd
Spring at Last, Donn Hcp, G1
Zenyatta, Apple Blossom Hcp, G1
Monterey Jazz, Texas Mile, G3

[Shammy Davis]

Curlin posted:

You forgot all the artificial surface horses who've won on the dirt this year.

On this point, last week TVG did a report on the synthetic vs dirt controversy. They interviewed Todd Pletcher, Steve Asmussen, and a couple of other trainers who was not familiar with. One of the significant points they all made was that horses that raced on synthetic had no problem racing subsequently on dirt while they found that dirt to synthetic was a problem. PYRO is an example. All also alluded to the point that in their barns the injury rate seemed to be down and they thought that the cushion/synthetic surfaces were safer.

I know! School is still out on the subject. But it is nice to know that the topic is being recognized with serious discussion.

One point we don't look at as closely is the subject of equine physical maturity and weight scales. They are certainly factors in our concern about equine injuries.

What a tragic time to be saying this, but you know EIGHT BELLES was carrying 200 pounds ( her trainer, Larry Jones) each morning she trained. The KD colts and this filly had just turned 3 (it is recognized that a 5 year old is physically mature) and were involved in a race that would have taken the greats like John Henry and Kelso to task as mature horses. Weight is a significant factor in how horses cover ground. Even for trainers who believe in training with weight, the limits for weight of exercise riders is about 135. It doesn't matter whether you are racing on turf, dirt, or cushion, wear and tear on these maturing legs, pasterns, and hooves, even during training, are cumulatve. BIG BROWN's hooves are definitely a testament to that. God bless, EIGHT BELLES. She definitely ran the race of her life.

[bdw0617]

Well I was wrong actually Unbridled's Song ruined the Derby. Everybody notice how the polycrappers finished up the track. Polytack is artificial TURF thats why the Euros love it so much. Would have liked to see Tomocito and Hey Byrn in the race instead of a couple of those turfers.

You forgot all the artificial surface horses who've won on the dirt this year. The Derby may be an important race, but it's only ONE of MANY.

Gayego, Arkansas Derby G2
Intangaroo, Humana Distaff, G1
Tiago, Oaklawn Handicap, G2, Heatseeker 2nd
Spring at Last, Donn Hcp, G1
Zenyatta, Apple Blossom Hcp, G1
Monterey Jazz, Texas Mile, G3

the problem isn't the track. it's that any horse that has any shot at all at the derby doesn't prep for them in SoCal anymore.

Some horses will get all surfaces.. look at big brown. as good as he was yesterday he might be better on turf!

Tthe problem is that Polytrack should be an OPtion, NOT A MANDATE.

It's an injustice to some of the horses out there espically in socal that are bred for dirt, and could possibly be grade 1 calibur, but because they don't take to the track they have out there, we will never know.

It will only take so many of Colonel John's for the people in socal to get restless and want drit back.

[Hagginwood]

Yes prepoly Keeneland and Santa Anita weren't the fairest but no way would turf horses win these derby preps while horses like Pyro would finish 10th.

Sincerely,

Pettybitchidiotchump

Gee, I thought I just saw a turf horse win the Derby. His allowance race was rained off of turf, and that is how he got his dirt prep for the Florida Derby. Now, was it surface, or did he happen to be the superior horse here?

[oliverstoned]

Yes prepoly Keeneland and Santa Anita weren't the fairest but no way would turf horses win these derby preps while horses like Pyro would finish 10th.

Sincerely,

Pettybitchidiotchump

Gee, I thought I just saw a turf horse win the Derby. His allowance race was rained off of turf, and that is how he got his dirt prep for the Florida Derby. Now, was it surface, or did he happen to be the superior horse here?

Big Brown earned his berth in the Derby with graded $ on the dirt. Which was the original point.

[reese]

"Even Frank Stronach, chairman of Santa Anita's parent company, Magna Entertainment Corp., admitted to health concerns regarding his track's surface during an exclusive interview on Magna's own Horse Racing TV on April 20".

And from Sheriffs..."Shirreffs, a harsh critic of the synthetic surfaces, claims the reduction in catastrophic breakdowns during the afternoons is more than offset by the casualties during morning workouts.

"And the horses that get hurt in the morning are the promising young horses," he said.

Said Stute: "I've had nine horses put down in 40 years, and five of them have been since the synthetics."




Another country heard from...in CA. LINK FOR ALL WHO CAN READ

http://www2.whittierdailynews.com/sports/ci_9200513

Whirlaway posted:

Dr. Roman raises some important questions here shammy. What say you to some of the questions he raises in his statement?

First, forgive me, who is Dr. Roman? Reese? Secondly, of course, I am open to discussion as long as valid information is presented. In the case of Reese's post, the data presented was what the expert herself said was inconclusive. Nothing I offered was erroneous or misrepresented. Outdated or incomplete, maybe. It was a reflection of my experience and study. It was not a result of a doctoral disertation. Lastly, it is not only the surface, but the subsurface construction that is vital to the issue.

I admitted to you early in this thread, that school is still out. I was discussing this issue with my wife this morning. She owned and operated a landscape company for over 25 years and is a certified VA Nurseryman and both of us agree that the quality of the materials and the construction is the key to the performance results when unnatural substances are used in place of natural materials. You may remember when crumb rubber was marketed as a safe playground material. That was over 30 years ago. They found out it wasn't so safe and they also found out that particles embedded in the children's clothing thus causing horrible cleaning and clothing expenses. Some children had choking and respiratory episodes. It was a mess. Later, the industry corrected the problems by applying a flexible polymer coating to the crumb rubber which eliminated the unthriftiness and respiratory problems. I don't have a clue what they did about the choking, but I remember when my girls were toddlers they'd put anything in their mouths that was within arms reach, so I guess parental attention is the key there.

Please, open this thread up for debate to all. If I suggested otherwise, I was out of line, but I only harshly challenged one post. I am not adverse to dirt as a surface. I think it is extremely important and I am keen on the idea that we find safe surfaces for the horses and jockeys to run over. But, please don't think that I will roll over when I'm slammed with phrases like "erroneous facts" or when biased reference is made to facts or information that are not honestly presented to the readers of this thread.

All that being said, JimbleBrimble makes an important point concerning the BH article at issue. I suspect that the JC revised the original data because when you consider the limited number of synthetic tracks to the 180 (I think) dirt tracks in the US, the statistical analysis, in my mind, becomes quite complicated. I am not sure that JimbleBrimble is totally correct, but I think it is a valid observation.

For all who can READ the link to the entire article is below

"The racing surface, used at Keeneland Race Course and several other tracks around the country, is comprised of silica sand, fibers and recycled materials and is designed to provide a soft cushion for the horse. It was installed at Keeneland in October 2006 with mixed results.

"I don't want to run on anything made from my attic," said Zito, who has won the Kentucky Derby twice and will saddle Cool Coal Man and Anak Nakal in Saturday's Run for the Roses, which will be on a dirt track. "I don't want no synthetic stuff."

These are strong words coming from Zito, who was the leading trainer at Keeneland four times, all before the Polytrack was installed.

At the just-concluded Keeneland meet in Lexington, Ky., Zito started only two horses, both in the Blue Grass Stakes, which produced the wacky 1-2 of Monba over Cowboy Cal - both longshot stablemates. The expected favorites - Pyro, Big Truck, Visionaire and Zito's Cool Coal Man - were never in the hunt despite posting strong efforts on the dirt in their prior starts.

"Basically synthetic turf is the best way to call it," Zito said. "Horses that run well over that Polytrack either have to have some turf pedigree or happen to like the grass."

Zito did say that synthetic tracks aren't a bad idea for training when there is inclement weather, but would rather race over dirt tracks.

"I've been in this game since I was 15," said the 60-year-old Zito. "God made dirt and God made grass. I'm very upset about this business right now."

Although Polytrack is still relatively new, Zito doesn't see it being any safer then a well-maintained dirt track.

"There may be less catastrophic injuries, but there are many more tendon and soft-tissue injuries," Zito said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_ ... is_sh.html[url][/url]

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