Eight Belles, my thoughts

[horsenuts]

the jock reported EB in distress shortly after she crossed the wire well before she fell. bad step is possible but unlikely statistically and in view of the other evidence including the double fracture???

One report said the jock heard a 'snap' shortly after the finish wire though she traveled on soundly for another 1/4 mile or so before breaking the other ankle and going down. Sounds very unfortunate and if the jock had been able to jump off earlier(see Charassmatic) she may very well be in recovery today. But hindsight is always 20/20. Very tragic for all involved.

[BridledObsession]

Question.........perhaps I'm too much of a novice looking at pedigrees. Everywhere you turn --- newspaper articles, TV, forums -- one of the main flags being flown is poor breeding. I'll agree it's going on, HOWEVER, is this really applicable to Eight Belles? I looked at the number of starts in her immediate ancestory and see primarily rather sturdy horses with over 20 starts. Is over 20 considered "poor"?

[soundfast]

If she was in distress he should have immediately dismounted. It seems common sense is in short supply when it comes to everybody involved with Eight Belles. A jockey who did not have enough sense to dismount immediately,a trainer who did not have enough sense to stay off of her back because that much weight can be detrimental.A lot of owners and trainers back when would refuse to run a horse if the handicapper wanted to put too much weight on them and no handicapper would ever have the nerve to suggest any Thoroughbred ever carry over 200lbs. Just because every horse does not get stress fractures from excess weight does not make it safe. The tiny little bone cracks can get bigger and bigger until the limb shatters. The breeders should have checked on how sound a foal they were likely to get before breeding their mare. If they had then Unbridled's Song would not have been the horse they chose. If a horses stall is properly designed it is not likely he will break his leg in it. If a fence is properly designed then his leg will not get caught in it. If one calls these things "freak accidents" then nothing changes because nobody learned anything.Preventing accidents means learning,thinking and changing things for the better and making them safer. Sometimes new rules are necessary because people are either indifferent or stupid or mean. There should be weight limits for exercise riders based on the age and size of the horse. The whip should never be raised above the jockeys head and brought down sharply and it should have a soft leather square on the end of it. A jockey should always dismount asap if a horse shows any sign of distress. A solid rubber track with treads or rubber under the track could make it safer. Each horse having their own lane with a barrier between horses and a barrier start angled so that the outside horse is further forward to adjust for the difference in distance around turns would make things safer. Standardbreds do not have starting gates so that source of injury is eliminated for them and it could be done for Thoroughbreds also. It could be freestanding on wheels rather than on the back of a truck. There are a lot of things that could make life safer and better for horses. People need to think about "what if" before something horrible happens. To change things and make them safer before its too late. Maybe not every accident is preventable but there are very few that aren't.

[BridledObsession]

Soundfast -- I agree with alot of what you've said, but again, what am I missing with Unbridled's Song and Eight Belles pedigree? On the sire's side in the up close ancestors, the least number of starts is 11, the most is Unbridled at 24. If that's too little, you could say they were trying to improve that average on the dam's side, with only one dam unraced (upclose), next least number of starts is 18, with the highest being 37.

Those sound like some pretty good numbers to me. Most of her ancestors died of old age or colic after a respectable career.

[soundfast]

Unbridled's Songs offspring average only 11 starts lifetime which is way below average. Eight Belles is not the only one of his offspring to break down. Breeding to horses who sire offspring that are average or above average soundness wise will make these things less likely to occur. Some horses have average lifetime starts much higher. Slew City Slew's average 21 and Home At Last's average 25. A. P. Indy's average 12(Rags To Riches had a bone injury) and Storm Cat's 11. If a sire has proven to produce a lot of unsound offspring then he should be avoided especially if he has fragile boned offspring because bone injuries are more likely to be fatal. If you read Thoroughhbred Times report about average soundness then you know that not long ago 21 was average. That average has gone down. My Thoroughbreds raced when 21 was average and they had 53 and 36 starts.

[BridledObsession]

Soundfast -- Got it.

Thanks for the explanation. Now that you mention that, I do remember seeing that list in the Thoroughbred times. Interesting stuff. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but any ideas why/where Unbridled's Song gets this "unsoundness" gene he's supposed to be passing along?

On the other hand, I've always heard that most of the Unbridled's are rushed because they tend to be big, precocious and show early speed. Therefore, they are ruined before their prime.

Perhaps it's a combination........

[ratherrapid]

Soundfast -- I agree with alot of what you've said, but again, what am I missing with Unbridled's Song and Eight Belles pedigree? On the sire's side in the up close ancestors, the least number of starts is 11, the most is Unbridled at 24. If that's too little, you could say they were trying to improve that average on the dam's side, with only one dam unraced (upclose), next least number of starts is 18, with the highest being 37.

Those sound like some pretty good numbers to me. Most of her ancestors died of old age or colic after a respectable career.

knowledge of breeding influences is close to astrology. If in fact "Breeding" (the very thought conjures up horrors--and yet, whoops, they just bred Curlin, Big Brown and Eight Belles) is causing breakdowns might the appropriate org. within the industry conduct a scientific study and determine precisely which part of the horse is weaker than formerly. My guess, they'd come up with very little.

soundfast, I like your thinking, and for those dwelling on drugs, breeding, what have you, I'd encourage considering "exercise physiology." I think they should just take Big Brown off the trail before something else happens..

[BridledObsession]

ratherrapid -- astrology, huh? Works for me. I look at my own children, and how different they are (and I didn't use a different sire everytime), and see exactly how impossible it is to nail this stuff down.

IMO, breeding plays a part, luck a bigger part, and proper care and training while growing the biggest part. All you have to do is look at the kids my children are playing sports with. The ones started to soon, too intensely are experiencing "career" ending injuries already at 12 and 13. Some hurt themselves out of just stupidity or dumb luck. Others start later, at a slower pace and may or may not go all the way - depending on natural ability and attitude. Sounds like most horses I know.

[horsenuts]

Unbridled's Songs offspring average only 11 starts lifetime which is way below average. Eight Belles is not the only one of his offspring to break down. Breeding to horses who sire offspring that are average or above average soundness wise will make these things less likely to occur. Some horses have average lifetime starts much higher. Slew City Slew's average 21 and Home At Last's average 25. A. P. Indy's average 12(Rags To Riches had a bone injury) and Storm Cat's 11. If a sire has proven to produce a lot of unsound offspring then he should be avoided especially if he has fragile boned offspring because bone injuries are more likely to be fatal. If you read Thoroughhbred Times report about average soundness then you know that not long ago 21 was average. That average has gone down. My Thoroughbreds raced when 21 was average and they had 53 and 36 starts.

Right you are and the family owned farms used to practice this critical aspect of breeding and raising horses (culling out weak strains not capable of producing soundness and durability despite ability)....... but then commercial breeding came along and replaced the family farms who were so dedicated to raising great horses dating back to the beginning of racing in America up until the 1970s.



Commercial breeders only see the $$$$$s involved and have no regard for soundness or durability and are the biggest contributor to the types of horses we have today.... horses with very limted shelf life who pass on these same characteristics to their offspring with no end in sight to this vicious circle. KY. breeding industry has been off the rails for decades and only have themselves to blame if people turn their back on the sport due to the fragility of the product they produce.

[Nerd]

Once caveat with using avg # starts in progeny is that it biases against commercially popular stallions. For example, if a colt sired by SlowpokePodunk were not particularly fast and not a good stud prospect, he would most likely be gelded and would race in some low-level circuit until every drop of racing had been squeezed out of him. By contrast, a successful horse sired by BlingBlingSpeedy would be retired at the drop of a hat because of his high value as a stud--any cautious investor would not want to risk him being injured by racing more (or decreasing in value if he were to lose--better to give him the benefit of the doubt and quit while they're on top, from an investor's POV). Similar logic applies to the fillies.
Seeing SlowpokePodunk's get's avg # starts be higher than BlingBlingSpeedy would not necessarily mean that his offspring are any more sound, or that he is more valuable of a breeding animal.

I'm not saying we shouldn't use avg # starts, but you would need to really think pretty hard about what you think is valuable and renormalize the data somehow to account for this phenomenon.

[soundfast]

Heredity plays a role in soundness not just environment which includes diet,training,stresses,etc. If you studied genetics you would realize that heredity matters in people and every other creature. There are hereditary problems in people not just horses. I suggest you try googling hereditary defects. Unbridled's Song had 12 starts. His dam Trolley Song only had 1 win at 4. From 13 foals she only had 4 winners. Unbridled's Song was her ONLY stakes winner. His grandsire Fappiano broke his leg in a paddock accident and was euthanized. Not all of his offspring have been unsound but he is more likely to produce unsound offspring than many other sires with much lower stud fees. In some cases where there are no faults in common and the dam's side is strong where he is weak the offspring may be sound enough but the odds are higher of getting offspring who will not stay sound long like Half Ours who is out of a Storm Cat mare. Before I spent a lot of time studying the problem of numerous injuries and breakdowns I thought environment played a more significant role and heredity a smaller one. I am very disappointed in the fact that many breeders knowingly breed to horses that produce unsoundness because they think their offspring will bring a higher price and they do not care about the future of these horses beyond getting them sold for a hefty profit. I was upset to learn that conformation and strong bones that would lead to a horse having a long happy life with a "second" career were not inmportant to some people. I even wonder sometimes if they want horses to break down so people will replace them sooner just like the American automakers before the Japanese started taking business away from them by producing more durable cars. Buyers seem to be getting more careful and not bidding so high on horses that do not pass the vet check which should if possible include a bone density scan. Hopefully soundness will become a higher priority with those breeders who have not cared previously. It is most likely going to cost them if they don't. Any sire you care to name with a large number of progeny has quite a few unsuccessful offspring who outnumber his much fewer successful offspring and the higher price someone pays for a stud fee or a purchase the more they have to make to break even. One of Giant's Causeways sons finally broke his maiden at age 5 at Sunland Park. They do not average fewer starts because of a few successful offspring. They may have many more than could not stay sound long enough to make them worth the price ever. When averaging the starts of hundreds of offspring a very few successful ones who retire early are not going to lower their average. The unsuccessful sires offspring will probably retire as soon or sooner because they do not have deep pocket owners who can afford to keep racing them when they do not win. I could name at least 2 dozen stallions whose offspring have 11 starts or less lifetime that have no stakes winners and have a lower than average percentage of winners.

[Worksoplad]

The rumors and innuendos about EB's trip and the unsubstantiated allegations that EB suffered injury in running, made by people with an agenda and an axe to grind but not a scintilla of evidence to support them are pretty sickening. Here is an excerpt from track veterinarian, Larry Bramlage of Rood & Riddle, from the British "Racing Post" newspaper, who was on the scene within seconds of this tragic ACCIDENT:

"The call for expanded use of synthetic tracks has resulted from the death of Eight Belles as well.

But Dr. Larry Bramlage, attending veterinarian for the Kentucky Derby, was quick to say that the dirt surface at Churchill Downs played no part in the injury the filly suffered.

"I don't think you can blame the injury on the race track or say that Polytrack would have prevented it," he said after Saturday's race.

"When we talk about a difference between race tracks, we are normally talking about long-term accumulation of wear and tear, and so this is not like Eight Belles was deep in the middle of a stretch battle and hit a bad step. She was done with the race, we're all the way through the end, and I don't think the forces on her legs pulling up would be any different on dirt or artificial surface.

"She never touched another horse in the race. She had a wonderful trip, as good a trip as you could hope for in the race. She pulled up great. You don't break down a quarter-mile slowing down after the race because of the track."
Churchill Downs spokesman John Asher defended the Churchill surface. "We still maintain the trackat Churchill Downs is as safe as any track in the country, maybe the world," he said. "

[bdw0617]

I read this article and I thought this quote was interesting enough to post here

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/ ... id=3384622

he truth of the matter is, and I wrote about it on multiple occasions in terms of handicapping the Derby, Eight Belles had a history of bad acting in her past races, gallops and workouts, tossing her head around and ducking in and out. While I am by no means a horseman, nor do I claim to be, it's almost universally spoken by horsemen that horses will tell you when something may be wrong. This kind of erratic motion often is due to physical inadequacies on one side of the horse's frame or the other.

[spex4me]

great article bdw:

If the following passage doesn't make every owner & trainer tremble I invite you to come out from underneath that rock you call a home:

Standing along the rail wondering why the cheaters can't be beat and why so many of the game's most-talented stars are dying on the racetrack can't go on much longer. At least not for me; and I hardly rate as an activist or a tree-hugger, but rather as a racing die-hard. Unfortunately, that ship already has sailed for most of the game's would-be fringe fans.

[horsenuts]

great article bdw:

If the following passage doesn't make every owner & trainer tremble I invite you to come out from underneath that rock you call a home:

Standing along the rail wondering why the cheaters can't be beat and why so many of the game's most-talented stars are dying on the racetrack can't go on much longer. At least not for me; and I hardly rate as an activist or a tree-hugger, but rather as a racing die-hard. Unfortunately, that ship already has sailed for most of the game's would-be fringe fans.

Why don't you and PETA make yourselves truly useful and go down to your local city pound tomorrow and release those countless 1000s of dogs and cats that are going to be euthanized? After that you can go down to Tyson's and save the chickens that are about to be beheaded for your local Chinese buffett and from their you can head for Monforts to stop the killing of the 1000s of steers that are going into your hamburgers that so many of you enjoy everyday. Then, if you still have daylight you can set up "squirel crossings" across your cities so I don't have to drive by so many of the cute but dead little furry creatures.


Horse racing doesn't need cowards like these folks jumping into the ring with folded chairs and brass knuckles in their darkest hours. Racing enthusiats are the last people that want travesty of this sort but since you people have all the answers to lifes woes you think you know best. You're the first to point the finger at the obvious when disaster strikes which is what I classify as a coward no matter the travesty.... which happens to involve horse racing at the present time.