Quick Belmont takes

[westover]

Some you are correct, are meds too close etc.. such as blocks..

The Queens Plate incident, there was nothing accidental about that. I am sure he paid all the fines for his staff & you have to feel some compassion for them, but he really is not on the straightn and narrow more often than not.

I would not have posted just my own opinion, i looked up his record via the internet. It was not hard to do. I did not just post assumptions & hope you now realize that i wasn't trying slander Mr. Dutrow with my own opinion but i listed the facts of his charges. My own opinion trust me is far worse than that of most of the articles that list his infractions.

[River Summit]

[quote="dray33"]Oh, this rap sheet is the stuff he [i]didn[/i]'t get away with.[/quote]

I suspect that there is plenty more that he hasn't been caught for than the stuff he has, but I can't prove it. Doesn't mean I'm not suspicious as all get out because I didn't fall off the turnip truck last nite.

I hated to see these people, owners and trainer, have all the limelight through the TC races because I thought they represented everything bad that people suspect about racing. IMO they were the WORST thing to happen to racing (and there have been plenty of crappy things) in a very long time.

[Linda_d]

after yesterday's comments, I've frankly lost interest in the subject of R. Dutrow. I was unable to connect to the Baltimore Sun link to check out the dates, but assume, from my prior googles, that most of the violations occurred pre-2000. since i'm unable to analyze the "rap" sheet, i'll only note there's difference between intentional cheating and rule violation due to incompetence and error--an example of this might be "illegal injectible vitamins",seems an oxymoron.

Here ya go:

The column in Dray's post: http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/horseracing/bal-sp.maese16may16,0,4909744.column

The original "rap sheet" that's the basis for the column: http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/acrobat/2008-05/38903142.pdf

[ratherrapid]

txs for posting as I was able to get this link.

BUT I'd like to know which of the violations since 2000 that you all consider serious and indications of cheating, if anyone cares to be specific.

for anyone declining the trouble to read the "rap" sheet, the typical is "lasix overage" "bute overage", "failed to have foal papers on file". "fail to have owner licensed" "claiming rules violation".

the most humerous: "being the aggressor in an altercation". I'm unable to imagine.

[westover]

THE QUEENS PLATE 2005



Many trainers i am sure encounter this sooner or later, but occassionally.. did you look at how long the freakn list it?

And come to think of it i know many who it has never happened too as they are extremely cautious about what they give, how much, when they give it..

There is an elite group to which this type of controversy surrounds them, like smoke during a forest fire!!! The list is way too long.. I purposely left out the other names i am thinking of, as i just cannot take the time to go through the net again to list their many infractions for you.

Its not just a case of it being inflated from media attention but a case of the # of infractions are so great that we do pay more attention to it then the guy who has had a few.

Usually where there is that much smoke, there has to be a little fire..

After all did all this crap come up when Micheal Matz won the Derby with Barbaro.. Oh but i forgot Micheal like many trainers before him handled himself with class in dealing with a stressful situation.

Too top it all off "Mr Forgone Conclusion" hasn't even paid 1/2 the fines!!!!

[dray33]

BUT I'd like to know which of the violations since 2000 that you all consider serious and indications of cheating, if anyone cares to be specific.

All of them.

I was in a trainers office one day when he learned of a "potential" violation. To me (an outsider), it looked like he was discussing the issue with the authorities. After he hung up the phone, I could tell he was unbelievably distressed. His words were something to the effect of: "this has never happened to me". A month later I learned it was fine, no charge leveled.

I have wondered about other trainers too, and how the records compare. I would guess that if we looked at some of the known users, vs. some of the known non-users, the records would clearly indicate a pattern of abuse. Maybe each in their own right is forgivable, but a continual pattern would tell me far more than a single incident. Actually, it's downright damning. To be sure, and for comparative purposes, I have contacted the Association of Racing commissioners. I am looking for reports like the Dutrow report, on other trainers to compare. They have not gotten back to me yet, so if anyone knows where I can obtain/purchase trainer violation reports I would greatly appreciate it.

So to answer your question ratherrapid, I think that all the charges might add up to a larger indication of intent... a case of 1 + 1 equaling 3.

[ratherrapid]

I seem to have the minority position on Dutrow, lol, but glad ur checking it out, though it would surprise me if one more trainer in America had this many violations. I guess the Stewards are looking out for their bumbling fellow man is all I'm able to come up with.

I'm personally unready to make a jump from multiple jaywalkings to thinking Dutrow tries to fix races. Dutrow says (its on video) that he'd never cheat to win a race, which I believe because its consistent with people who take pride in their horse care and training. How can you see the fruits of your efforts if you're shooting your horse up with elephant juice? Now the trainer of the Derby winner standing there 20 times watching his horse enter the race track without filing the foal papers I am trying to fathom.

[westover]

I have decided all Canadian Prisons should send their inmates to Kansas City, Missoui. You have the nicest, most polite attitude toward a man who loves to find a way or die trying to cheat..lol I feel you would be the perfect person to rehibilitate our prisoners.. who cost $50,000 a year to keep.. lol
You would be the answer to our National debt!!!!

You are correct the foal papers are probably just an oversight among some others in there.. but how can any trainer be that sloppy with med's .. there is only one other i can think of off of the top of my head that would be very close.. i think, Ass____sen ..

Who, oddly enough, has 30 stalls at Woodbine. This after the Woodbine CEO who professes his distaste for cheating & the use of steriods to the nation in the Toronto Sun, & to anyone who would listen, gave him that many stalls when others who are local and good barns as well (but not under the cloud of multiple infractions) are begging for 10!!! go figure. Its called $$$ he will generate money for Woodbine as he runs so so many bloody horses.. funny how ones morals can go right out the window when there is the lure of Cash'óla involved.

I can say 100% its not the foal papers etc.. people are looking at when they look at that list.. its the # of times a trainer can have an "accidental test postive".

The Plate was a Million dollar race, the connections took home $600,000 CND plus the multiple 6 digit bets they made on the horse knowing the info they gave bettors but kept to themselves was FALSE... & then had the balls to brag on t.v. aahhh the large bets they made.. knowing all the while they lied to the bettors...

I don't like CHEATS. No one will quit the Steriod deal until everyone does. Trainers whether it works or not feel it may or may not give some advantage, but if the trainer down the shed row is using it they had better just in case...

If i am ever in trouble i am call'n u!!! lol

[dray33]

I'm personally unready to make a jump from multiple jaywalkings to thinking Dutrow tries to fix races.

I don't think he tires to fix races. But I don't think his transgressions equates to jaywalking.

Dutrow says (its on video) that he'd never cheat to win a race, which I believe because its consistent with people who take pride in their horse care and training.

Taking a man at his word is great, but his words continually contadict your logic. He has said he allows his vet to shoot up his horses, without knowing what the medications really do. He said it, so that must be true right? If thats the case, that is not a man who takes pride in horse care. He injects EVERY horse in the barn, filly or colt, on the 15th of every month. Again, a man who cared about his charges wouldn't blindly inject because he can, he would do it out of concern for the animal. The horse won't eat up? Is it lackluster or not focused on training? These are the questions horsemen ask before they decide blindly "shoot 'em all". If you believe his words ratherrapid, how can you believe he cares one bit beyond winning for his horses? He has said so too many things that contradict that.

How can you see the fruits of your efforts if you're shooting your horse up with elephant juice? Now the trainer of the Derby winner standing there 20 times watching his horse enter the race track without filing the foal papers I am trying to fathom.

Shooting up IS his labor, he has admitted as much. So he gets to witness the fruits of his labors. Problem is, he is probably a better horseman that 95% of them out there, but his character doesn't allow him, or us, to see what he is truly capable of. When the playing field levels, RD will still win with his horses. Maybe not at 35% off a claim. Maybe not at the percentage he see now. I look at it this way. His reputation precedes him. If he, one day, was lucky enough to have the real super-horse, he could rant and rave till his eyes fall out, the black cloud drags him, and his horses down. He is better than that. Talent is a terrible thing to waste.