I want revenge's vet bill

[bpressey]

I must remember I am on Pedigree Query, so I guess all of my newfound buddies are from the breeding and bloodstock arenas.

Please don't take this as a flame, as I have great respect for you waking up at 4am every morning, some when its 5 degrees, and being around horses all day for 2,3,4 decades. You are all a better people than me for that dedication, and I commend you. I am 41, I can never begin to fathom all that you have learned - so I won't try.

But, I fill a niche. There are two owners out there, one in Europe and one in South America, each with net worths well over $100 million, that have stopped using bloodstock services after years of negative financial returns.

Both made their fortunes through hard work over the years in industries such as retail sales and pharmaceuticals. They have watched technology and data analysis contribute greatly to these endeavors and wish to practice the same in thoroughbred racing.

These guys are not writing blank checks to the heart score and biomechanics camps, they realize the 'magic' of what happens in a thoroughbred takes place on the inside - and when they are exercising, not while they stand in an auction ring or get an echocardiogram in their stalls, or get measured by a crazy old guy and his tape.

Unfortunately this skill I have developed is not very marketable as the other 'bloodstock advisors' cited by LB. But, it has its place I have found.

At first my feelings were hurt when I was called an idiot on this board, but you have given me a platform to write down what has been in my head for the last 3 years and for that I thank you all.

[dublino]

Bill you are an idiot, your telling all these "horsemens" clients the truth.

You expect the "Magic Circle" to welome you when you are revealing the magicians tricks?

[LB]

You breed the best to the best for 80 years and turn out overmedicated horses that still can’t run 10 consecutive 12s furlongs, even with injected joints and tendons.
Enlighten us and provide some data as to what your horses have been bought or sold for and what they have gone on to earn for your clients, counting stud/broodmare residuals too of course.
Don’t forget to factor in the $1500 monthly vet bills along the way – and the 40% of selections that your horsemanship couldn’t even get to the races.
I protect my clients from such situations, luckily for you there are enough guys willing to lose $5million a year on your gamble.
Others are not so willing.

What I do does not pay particularly well, and I often spend my own money to get things rolling.
I have plenty of my own money to buy and develop equine athletes, but I will not waste it giving it to a ‘horseman’ to go buy someone else’s culls at Keeneland, and charge me 5% for the privilege.

People like me are forced to prove ourselves, while horsemen and women with a track record of failure are allowed to toot their own horns, must be nice.

The point of my post was not to make you defensive though I see I have certainly succeeded in doing so. I don't consider myself to be closeminded but I have definitely been in the industry long enough to have lost the desire to offer easy credibility to anyone who asks for it. I do not recall calling you an idiot but I do have reservations about what I'm reading: you stated earlier that you started doing what it is that you do two years ago. I find it hard to credit that in that short an amount of time you have proven that your system works.

Clearly you've made many assumptions about what I do--most of them wrong, I might add. But with reference to some of your comments above: why would I want to produce (for U.S. racing) a horse that "could run 10 consecutive 12 furlongs"? Where would I race it?

As for the $1500 vet bills you see as the norm, people who are paying those are idiots. And they need new trainers. If that's the position your clients were in previously no wonder they see your system as an improvement--as I'm sure it is under those circumstances. Aside from the Derby prospect whose bill started this thread, however, most owners who have decent trainers and a clue what they're doing are paying much much less than that.

As for tooting my own horn--though I'm baffled as to how you read that into my previous post--I don't need to. I have plenty of horses but no clients. I spend my own money and make my own decisions. So the horn tooting is pretty much irrelevant.

[bpressey]

LB, I didn't mean to include you in all comments, I apologize. I am not asking for anyone to believe anything, I don't have a ‘system’ to sell here.
After I got started ranting I moved some stuff to another post, so please don’t take offense.

But in all fairness, you looped me in with other consultants with which I share no similarities that you consider charlatans.
You also claimed how fantastic good old fashioned horsemanship is, but people who rely on that at auctions lose money 80% of the time.

If you had a horse who could run 10F on dirt in 120 seconds he would win the Kentucky Derby by 10 lengths this May.

Hell, if you have a 2 year old now that can simply gallop a mile in 2:00 and show me his heart rate stays around under 85% of max – I have people lined up to buy such a prospect.

Lined up. That is no exaggeration. He may wind up in Zimbabwe (hope not), but he will run – that physiological behavior is the definition of an athlete.

I don’t care how he/she looks, what their pedigree says, what your vet says, etc. I will buy them because my experience with over 1200+ horses around the world in the last 2 years leads me to believe that is a future stakes winner. This is what Todd Pletcher refers to as a ‘high cruising speed’.

You don’t put any stake in my stuff compared to your horsemanship anyway, so you would sell right?

[bpressey]

As a matter of fact, that goes for anyone on this board:

If you, or your clients, have a 2 year old in training that can knock off a mile in 2min and keep his/her Heart Rate around 85% of max, I will get them sold.
If you have a 3+ year old that can do the same – I will give it a shot, but he is already likely priced according to his perceived value, not much upside remaining.
On dirt, not synthetics – big difference. That surface throws a whole new set of monkey wrenches into the works.

Yearlings too on an exercise machine, although the HR behavior is defined differently.
Also this board will see every vet bill he ever gets during his career, even if we have to resort to shooting him up like Charlie Sheen in Vegas at a bachelorette party.

Heart score/biomechanics/confirmation/vet scans/pedigree/appearance/temperament/etc. mean zero to me.
What I am after is a 30mph sustained gallop at maximal oxygen utilization, again Todd Pletcher’s ‘high cruising speed’ objectively defined.
Some of my clients may even send him to Pletcher or Mott, that is up to them. So you may still get some big name connections involved if that is your wish.
My goal is to get more champions sold privately rather than being thrown in the mix at auction. Hopefully I will take one off your hands that you don't feel will be held in high regard at a public auction.

If my pseudo-science is such junk, and your horsemanship is so expert, surely we can make a deal with which everyone is happy.

[LB]

LB, I didn't mean to include you in all comments, I apologize. I am not asking for anyone to believe anything, I don't have a ‘system’ to sell here.
After I got started ranting I moved some stuff to another post, so please don’t take offense.

But in all fairness, you looped me in with other consultants with which I share no similarities that you consider charlatans.
You also claimed how fantastic good old fashioned horsemanship is, but people who rely on that at auctions lose money 80% of the time.

If you had a horse who could run 10F on dirt in 120 seconds he would win the Kentucky Derby by 10 lengths this May.

Hell, if you have a 2 year old now that can simply gallop a mile in 2:00 and show me his heart rate stays around under 85% of max – I have people lined up to buy such a prospect.

Lined up. That is no exaggeration. He may wind up in Zimbabwe (hope not), but he will run – that physiological behavior is the definition of an athlete.

I don’t care how he/she looks, what their pedigree says, what your vet says, etc. I will buy them because my experience with over 1200+ horses around the world in the last 2 years leads me to believe that is a future stakes winner. This is what Todd Pletcher refers to as a ‘high cruising speed’.

You don’t put any stake in my stuff compared to your horsemanship anyway, so you would sell right?

I'm not saying I don't put any stake in your stuff, I'm saying that previous to that post I had no idea what it was you did. Having read the TB Times booklet cited earlier I know that you're an equine exercise physiologist and that you endorse tougher training schedules for racehorses. But what I don't know is...two years in, is it working?

As for your question, if I had a horse that fit your parameters, sure I'd sell. If horse ownership has taught me anything it's that every horse I own (well except for 2) is for sale at the right price.

[bpressey]

Yes LB, working quite well, thank you for asking. Of course, no big name trainers, but smaller operations spread out over the world. A 2 year old recently went under the regimen I advocate described by Dr. Nunamaker which entails fast work 2x a week:

Week one, trainer hears: "What are doing, you are gonna kill that filly!"
Week eight, trainer hears: "You got a stakes filly there is what you got."
This is a typical reaction. She'll be racing soon.

Now I do identify prospects, good and bad, for many other big names and that has been extremely rewarding - so much so that I have the backing to go find prospects to buy, some for individuals, some for syndicates.

Many are disillusioned with the auction process and are looking for something different.

[zinn21]

The point of my link to the Maryland Shin Study is that ideal conditioning practices always trump drugs when developing sound, sturdy racehorses with no side effects

I agree totally and I'll take any horse that can two minute lick @ 85% of max heart rate. I think I've got a 3yold that fits the bill but he is not for sale..

[Crystal]

What Up Dub,
I had a good day at work HAHAHAHAHA

[zinn21]

bp wrote:

Get them once they turn 2, follow the recommendations of Nunamaker/Fisher – and you have a chance to train/race drug free and remain sound.
That is what I do. Takes more time, takes more attention, takes more effort

Basically I employ a similar program and it works for me. I race sound horses with minimal Vet expense that run for years. One of my former horses I purchased as a yearling and went through our program raced for me and was claimed away as a 5 year old, won race number 12 today at Tampa Bay Downs. His name is Quite A Dude.

[Whirlaway]

Interesting read and wonderfully illuminating.

And all this time I thought the "magic circle", the vets, breeders, trainers, owners and bloodstock agents cared about the horse. What they really care about is profit - damn the horse. No doubt this one snapshot into what really goes on is only the tip of the iceberg.

Good to read the truth in your posts bpressy. The truth will always win.

[Laurierace]

Most two year olds aren't even in training yet let alone two minute licking a mile already. That said, I have been following the MD shin study for well over a decade with good results. I managed to do that without alienating anyone believe it or not. And robinol aka glycopyrolate is not for stomach acid or whatever you claimed, it reduces mucus. Which is why it was given to a horse with a suspected lung infection.

[bdw0617]

wow this thread certainly got interesting.

A few random thoughts


1. yeah, any time you see your horse 2 minute licking a week before the derby that's pretty much a nail in the coffn. I remember Doug O'Neil scratch I think it was Cobalt Blue or Liquidity before the 07 derby, and did so based off a 2 minute lick which he was basically saying I don't even know if the horse can give a good enough performance to push him before the derby.


2. think both "sides" have a point. i have been here for quite a while and I have come to respect alot of people here and their knowledge. My learning curve in the sport and what I do, was drastically reduced becuase I (for the most part lol) shut my mouth and listened. I know alot that I would not know, and that horse players 20 years my senor don't know because I listen to these people. On the other hand, since has come a dang long way, and if you dont' thnk we aren't capable of doing some things we weren't capable of dong 20 years ago through science and f you are taking the approach that all science is voodoo or something, then you are just as bad.


3. There are drugs and there are "drugs". Me taking a multi vitamin, fish oil, protein powder, NAC and a workout supplement everyday, is not the same as someone taking taking a cocktail of uppers and/or downers everyday. In other words you just can't look at drugs and just say "see, look at all these pills/drugs, that's BAD!

What I would be interested n seeing however, think this would be really good and really telling. Take 10 random horses from America, 10 from France, 10 From Britian, 10 from dubai, 10 from Argentina, 10 from japan and 10 from Australia, hoses that have ran at least 6 times in the last year, and compare all their vet bills. I don't profess to know how much other spend, but I watch, alot of international racing, and horses from japan and australia.. just look better, they look better kept. I would be willing to bet their vet bill isn't AS high as ours, and if that is the case, what are we doing to make this normal practice. Golddkova on Breeders Cup day, looked like she was a different bred of horse than any other horse n the race she looked that good.


I think that's the point of it all, not os much that "hey this is normal, nothing to see here" but.. why is all this normal? As zinn pointed out, and hell even I what medications are used for joint issues, why should a 3YO who has started what...8 times have to be taking all these medications just to run? I mean, get the x rays, f I paid half a million dollars for a horse I want poop reports, the whole deal. I get that. lol, I want my horse dewormed lol. That's something I'm pro drug for. The ulcers I'm "meh" about, horses tie up, horses get ulcers, it happens, even in good barns, But damn they are spending, or were spending thousands a mount on joint treatment.


I dont' care if it is o normal, I just want to know 1. is this normal elsewhere and 2. if so why and 2B what can we do to fix it? how come horses from Aussie land and New zealand are so much more durable then our horses when they come here to the states?




But, you know what really scares me, seriously? It's not lke the horse, was taken out of training weeks before the derby. he was scratched, derby morning. What if he ran? What if he broke down on the track? I don't think that's an unreasonable question to be asking considering he would have been asked to run the race of his life, with all those problems going a distance he had never traveled. had he broken down, you think any of this would have been brought up? Or would it have been just viewed as a "tragic accident" or "bad step"

[BenB]

He would have collapsed, without any saying

[TJ]

TJ again, very astute.

Things are different in the US vs the rest of the world. Some good, some bad. In Ireland you will never find a stopwatch when horses work fast - I cannot comprehend the logic behind that.
In Argentina, they gallop at 2 min lick pace with no saddle - just foam. I can stand on the track there with a horse breezing 10' in front of me, and another 20' behind me - unreal and completely safe.
We have European-style off track training centers here that still close the surface for training at noon.

But I take issue with the fact that US horses run faster.
They run the same times as they did 80 years ago over 10F. And regardless of what Ragozin says, Butch Lehr has not been systematically slowing down the CD strip in that time. You can compare winning times at the same track and the same week of the year when you average the times by decade as I have done, IMO.

Hi BP,
In my post I wasn't referring to an increase in overall speed of the American race horse from years ago, I was referring to the fractional times and the stress that the increased fractional speed within a race run on dirt in America will have on the horses soundness/longevity. Personally I think the American race horse's speed is almost max ed out at this point considering the stress upon their bones/tendons at maximum speed increase's tenfold under fast fractional times. Hence the necessity for time off or drugs. Which route is chosen is up to the moral fiber of the individual horse owners/trainers and the Vets willingness to take short cuts. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone covering up ailments to win a race and risk injury to the horse and rider. Today I will still stop and give time off when needed as I did back in the day. I would hear why would you do that, drop him down and let someone else worry about him. This thinking is a problem in itself, as too many feel like this and create the scenario for the horse to get loaded up on drugs, drop down, break down and end up being abandoned when they become useless horses. Sorry about going off on a tangent, but that's what get's me riled up. Getting back to the point, they conserve the horses speed till the end of the race in Europe, that isn't done often here in the states, yet it could and should be done. As was seen when racing switched to synthetics in California the jocks and trainer's realized that a horse couldn't run and win on the front end as was the norm on the dirt course previously and is once again since the return to dirt. That's when they adjusted running/racing style's and started riding as they do on the turf across the pond (early fractional times slowed considerably). Rider's reserved their mounts speed early and made a run through the lane for the money....as Zenyatta showed them the way to do it. This is a better way to race a horse, especially since they are warmed up better before they are asked for their real speed at the finish. A horse will stay sounder racing under such conditions and is probably the reason why there was a slight decrease in breakdowns with the synthetic tracks in California. Now that California went back to dirt and fast fractions have returned.....we may very well see an increase in breakdowns, but it isn't always the track, it's the pace and the speed of the internal fractions that will cause increased breakdowns. This is also why the Euro's horses stay sounder longer...slower internal fractions and usually softer bases to run over. TJ