DDT: You said, " Raise A Native was nothing special at stud "
If he was nothing special at stud then how come after his death the NY Times article of July 30th 1988 stated that Raise A Native was the most influential sire of American Thoroughbred stallions over the last 20 years. The title of the article was "Raise A Native Destroyed"
If he was nothing special at stud then how come he is one of ONLY three stallions in history to sire three leading American sires: Alydar, Exclusive Native and Mr. Prospector. The only other horses in history to sire 3 leading American sires were Fair Play and Northern Dancer.
If he was nothing special at stud then how come he sired one of the all time most influential sires in Mr. Prospector.
Starters in Belmont Stakes
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Stan
I guess you miss the point here, I said WITHOUT Mr. Prospector Raise a Native's sire record is nothing special. Raise a Native himself never attained leading sire status by progeny earnings. Exclusive Native led the list twice with Affirmed as his leading earner in 1978 and 1979. Alydar led the list once with Criminal Type as his leading earner, and since when has the NY Times been an authority of horse racing, a lot has happened since 1988. You have your opinion on this subject and I have mine, we can agree to disagree.
DDT
I guess you miss the point here, I said WITHOUT Mr. Prospector Raise a Native's sire record is nothing special. Raise a Native himself never attained leading sire status by progeny earnings. Exclusive Native led the list twice with Affirmed as his leading earner in 1978 and 1979. Alydar led the list once with Criminal Type as his leading earner, and since when has the NY Times been an authority of horse racing, a lot has happened since 1988. You have your opinion on this subject and I have mine, we can agree to disagree.
DDT
I never missed your point
DDT
See the above again. RAN's sire record is clearly something special and he is always going to be remembered as the stallion that gave us Mr. Prospector in addition to leading sires Alydar and Exclusive Native. 3 leading sires isn't too shabby.
Why should I take away Mr. Prospector from the equation that contributes to why RAN was a great sire. Mr. Prospector was his son and his bloodline carries on through him. You keep on saying that if it wasn't for Mr. Prospector etc etc but Mr. Prospector is his son. He gave us that great sire.
This discussion is old and tiresome.
See the above again. RAN's sire record is clearly something special and he is always going to be remembered as the stallion that gave us Mr. Prospector in addition to leading sires Alydar and Exclusive Native. 3 leading sires isn't too shabby.
Why should I take away Mr. Prospector from the equation that contributes to why RAN was a great sire. Mr. Prospector was his son and his bloodline carries on through him. You keep on saying that if it wasn't for Mr. Prospector etc etc but Mr. Prospector is his son. He gave us that great sire.
This discussion is old and tiresome.
Stan & winds
This discussion is tiresome and I will leave you both with one last statement, if you look at Raise a Native's stakes winner percentage and his AEI when compared to other stallions he has been out performed by horses such as Halo, Codex, Damascus and many others. When you talk about awesome stallions such as Nearco, Ribot, Nasrullah, Bold Ruler, Northern Dancer, Danzig and Sadlers Wells his record as a leading stallion is average at best.
DDT
This discussion is tiresome and I will leave you both with one last statement, if you look at Raise a Native's stakes winner percentage and his AEI when compared to other stallions he has been out performed by horses such as Halo, Codex, Damascus and many others. When you talk about awesome stallions such as Nearco, Ribot, Nasrullah, Bold Ruler, Northern Dancer, Danzig and Sadlers Wells his record as a leading stallion is average at best.
DDT
Outperformed, really?
DDT
You can slice and dice it any way you want but the bottom line is still the same. RAN begot three leading sires and only Northern Dancer and Fair Play achieved that status. His sire line is the most powerful in all three jewels of the Triple Crown. 18 Derby winners have Ran in tail male. The superfecta in this years Derby was comprised of 4 horses that carried the RAN sire line.
Sure, Mr Prospector is the most dominant and Raise A Native begot him too.
You can slice and dice it any way you want but the bottom line is still the same. RAN begot three leading sires and only Northern Dancer and Fair Play achieved that status. His sire line is the most powerful in all three jewels of the Triple Crown. 18 Derby winners have Ran in tail male. The superfecta in this years Derby was comprised of 4 horses that carried the RAN sire line.
Sure, Mr Prospector is the most dominant and Raise A Native begot him too.
Your point , really?
DDT
I thought your basic point was that without Mr. Prospector, RAN's influence in the classics would be very little. That's not true because the RAN sire line generated 7 Derby winners without Mr prospector appearing in tail female.
I thought your basic point was that without Mr. Prospector, RAN's influence in the classics would be very little. That's not true because the RAN sire line generated 7 Derby winners without Mr prospector appearing in tail female.
show me where you said that
DDT
Show me where you said that the Raise A Native's sire line record in the Classics was noteworthy. Just point out the post above in this thread where you said that.
Show me where you said that the Raise A Native's sire line record in the Classics was noteworthy. Just point out the post above in this thread where you said that.
without Mr. Prospector
DDT
You keep hammering home the point that without Mr. Prospector Raise A Native's influence on the Classics would be nothing to brag about.
One could also look at this discussion as follows: Without Raise A Native Native Dancer's influence on the Classics would be nothing to brag about. Without Raise A Native, the Native Dancer sire line is represented by only one Classic winner, Kaui King in 1966. With Raise A Native in the line, the Native Dancer sire line is represented by 19 Classic winners. Therefore we also must give strong credit to Raise A Native for the success of the Native Dancer sire line in the Classics and those filly races CCA Oaks and Alabama.
Without Raise A Native Mr. Prospector would not have been born.
You keep hammering home the point that without Mr. Prospector Raise A Native's influence on the Classics would be nothing to brag about.
One could also look at this discussion as follows: Without Raise A Native Native Dancer's influence on the Classics would be nothing to brag about. Without Raise A Native, the Native Dancer sire line is represented by only one Classic winner, Kaui King in 1966. With Raise A Native in the line, the Native Dancer sire line is represented by 19 Classic winners. Therefore we also must give strong credit to Raise A Native for the success of the Native Dancer sire line in the Classics and those filly races CCA Oaks and Alabama.
Without Raise A Native Mr. Prospector would not have been born.