Discreet Cat - Overated?

[halo]

While I agree you dont *need* to see a sire produced by the immediate family for a prospect to be successful at stud, Deputy Minister's family doesnt fit that mold.

His 3rd dam, Grass Shack, is a half to the bluehen Exclusive who was the dam of leading sire Exclusive Native. She's also the ancestress of Out of Place, American Chance, Saarland, etc.

While I completely agree with what Halo is saying, I would not have used Deputy Minister as the example, other than the fact he's as complete an outcross as a Northern Dancer line stallion can be and at first glance, the pedigree is lighter than it really is but the class is still there, especially if you believe in female family... family over individual.

I really think that saying a horses third dam is a half to a good mare is quite a stretch at trying to justify a good pedigree. You can probably find horses all day long running at Beulah Park who's third dams are a half sister to some nice horse. Hell, Rokeby is saying that Discreet Cat doesnt come from a sire producing line and he's out of a grade 1 winner whos dam is a half sister to a Kentucky Oaks winner.

If Deputy Minister went to stud today, with that kind of female family, it would be a hugely uphill battle. Its fortunate he went to stud at Windfields Farm when he did, where he got a decent chance at stud. There must have been a reason why he started out in Maryland and not Kentucky. I think his pedigree is probably why.

[Rokeby Forever]

Halo does have a point!

Didn't Bob Brennan (Due Process Stable) buy Deputy Minister for something like $14 Million as a 3 year old? I forget how Deputy Minister wound up back at Windfields in Maryland...does anybody remember the circumstances, or is it because of what Halo suggests...he was a so-so bred Canadian bred? By "so-so," I mean that his female family is arguably weaker than Smart Strike's. LOL!

[louis finochio]

A leading Tb breeder will not attempt to say this freshman stallion will make it and this one wont.

The best way to play the game is to wait and let those freshman stallions sort themselves out and then you cna send your mares to those stallions that have beaten the odds.

You will then see what lines are crossing to produced those superior runners and those that dont.

It is best to let the Tb tell us what to do, rather then telling them what to do before they become an icon for the breed.

[kimberley mine]

By "so-so," I mean that his female family is arguably weaker than Smart Strike's. LOL!

Rokeby, 90% of stallions at stud have pedigrees arguably weaker than Smart Strikes...

In response to CA Michael, Memo, Cee's Tizzy, and In Excess may not be from known sire-producing lines BUT they do have quite a lot of class in their first three generations. Cee's Tizzy has the weakest 1st dam, but then Tizna's direct offspring weren't much. Danzig had class (a stakes-winning dam) close up. So did Mr Prospector. Spectacular Bid had oceans of talent as a racehorse but his comparatively weak female line was his undoing at stud.

[Maven]

While I agree you dont *need* to see a sire produced by the immediate family for a prospect to be successful at stud, Deputy Minister's family doesnt fit that mold.

His 3rd dam, Grass Shack, is a half to the bluehen Exclusive who was the dam of leading sire Exclusive Native. She's also the ancestress of Out of Place, American Chance, Saarland, etc.

While I completely agree with what Halo is saying, I would not have used Deputy Minister as the example, other than the fact he's as complete an outcross as a Northern Dancer line stallion can be and at first glance, the pedigree is lighter than it really is but the class is still there, especially if you believe in female family... family over individual.

I really think that saying a horses third dam is a half to a good mare is quite a stretch at trying to justify a good pedigree. You can probably find horses all day long running at Beulah Park who's third dams are a half sister to some nice horse. Hell, Rokeby is saying that Discreet Cat doesnt come from a sire producing line and he's out of a grade 1 winner whos dam is a half sister to a Kentucky Oaks winner.

If Deputy Minister went to stud today, with that kind of female family, it would be a hugely uphill battle. Its fortunate he went to stud at Windfields Farm when he did, where he got a decent chance at stud. There must have been a reason why he started out in Maryland and not Kentucky. I think his pedigree is probably why.

Its not that the 3rd dam is a half to a good mare, its that the third dam is a half to a bluehen mare who produced one of the top stallions of the past 50 years.

Would you like to see the relation a little closer up in the pedigree? Absolutely. Doesnt mean the class and the arrows pointing to success arent there.

[Maven]

Hi Maven,

I'm not quite sure how you can call the Busanda branch "less heralded" when Buckpasser is such an important part of Phipps Breeding.

Busanda will appear in the Dance Number family (Rhythm, among others), as well as Numbered Account (Private Account), Con Game (Seeking The Gold), Heavenly Prize (Pure Prize), and so many others. Where would the Phipps breeding program be without Buckpasser/Busanda? All those blue hens...what do they all seem to have? And now, My Flag and Storm Flag Flying carry Buckpasser/Busanda, as well - and even Pleasant Home does, through Seeking the Gold.

That was actually my point. Up until about 10 years ago, the only time you saw or heard of Busanda was through her fantastic son, Buckpasser. It took a few generations for her class to really kick in on the track after producing him.

You got Outstandingly and then the bluehen La Mesa who has a ton of very good stallion prospects decending from her, including Officer, Bernstein, Sky Mesa, and Wiseman's Ferry.

Busanda happens to be my favorite line of La Troienne, and in my opinion, the best stallion producers from the La Troienne clan.

[wilf]

Hello, is this the racing or breeding thread??? All very interesting and great reading however my take on the Discreet Cat fiasco in Dubai is that his preparation was all wrong and they took him out of his game. The writing was on the wall with missed prep races and then to snag him off the pace to make up for his lack of seasoning was nuts! Obviously they were not scratching to save face, it's just their way. Fortunately the finish was a thriller and we were left with a respectable result.

[Rokeby Forever]

Wilf, it's all Maven's fault.

He's been in and out of therapy because he spends day and night thinking, studying and talking about pedigrees and nicks - I think he's been heard mumbling about Mahmoud in his sleep. I wonder if his therapists have just thrown their hands up in the air and given up at this point.

I would add an "LOL"....but I might be right!