Japanese training methods and philosophy

[Tiz]

Larry, I know what claiming races are designed to do, for crying out loud.
I also know that when you've spent years getting a horse to the races, and it turns out to have some talent, but not allowance talent, it's a major financial hit to lose it to a claim. I'd welcome a different grading system, and I'm not saying it should replace claiming races necessarily, but be added to the mix.

[Altanbarr]

"Why not take a $5000 claiming race for non-winners of 2 lifetime and make it a $5000 allowance race for non-winners of 2 lifetime?"



I owned some low level claimers and its expensive to give sore claimers three or four months off and bring them back (without medication) at the same competitive level and let them get claimed. You can lose the horse and three months of expenses. So these horses may become financially obsolete before they are physically done. I thought I read that some tracks are considering allowing horses coming off a layoff to run once in a claiming race at the level they ran previously without being in for a tag. Sounded like a good idea to me and would not need to be limited to nonwinners of 2 or 3 races lifetime. Owners would be more willing to give horses time off.

[larrygene]

altan, I have played the low level claiming game and I might say, I had very good success. I seriously doubt anyone would claim a horse that has been off 4 or 5 months and in for a $5K tag. Unless they had been running for $15K or $20K. I have claimed many horses and I would be very leery of a cheap horse that has been laid off over 60 days. If they were sore then they're prior race record would probably stink!! Even the more reason I would be leery. I dare say your horse would be very safe from being claimed. And if it was it would very likely be a blessing. Take the $5K and go claim you a sound horse. Let someone else deal with the cripple. Even better take the $5K from the claim and add $5K and go claim one for $10K. The chances are a lot better for you getting a sounder horse than one for $5K. JMO

[Tucumcari]

Where I originated from in my quest for a life funded by horse racing, they have a season that runs Apr-Nov. The last couple of months of the meet all races were optional type claimers. I'd have to assume though I can't remember for sure, that the claiming rule is the same as "regular" optional claimers. So we could protect our horses to some degree and to be honest it was dull. Racing wasn't racing because somehow we'd always end up running against something that is protected by the rule and was so much the best, and had these races not existed it wouldn't have been able to compete at the lower level and romp and be protected. Racing is predictable and still no one is happy

[Altanbarr]

Larrygene: I agree claiming horses off a layoff is dicey and no one wants to wait 90 days to get rid of a "cripple". But the idea of allowing horses to come back off a layoff at the level they were competing at before the layoff without subjecting them to a possible claim is to give owners a financial incentive to give horses some recovery time once in a while instead of sending them back out every two weeks on painkillers. It would give owners two races to recover their extra training costs instead of one, much as maiden races have high purses to allow owners to recover high initial training expenses.

[larrygene]

I read what you are saying and am not opposed to the idea. The problem is not selling me but selling it to the racing secretaries at the tracks. all I can say is go for it!!!You might get someone to listen and make the changes you and others seem to want.

Good Luck,
Larrygene

[pokeyman]

pokey, they already have a race for $5000 allowance non winners of 2 lifetime. And you can enter your horse if they fit the conditions. But what about the horse that has won 10 times?? Where do they fit? I don't see how you equate claiming races with horses breaking down. What about Eight Belles and Barbaro?? What about H/J that breakdown or steeple chasers. Each sport has their own levels of competition. I'm sorry I don't follow your logic about claiming horses being run until they breakdown. Do you run your horses in claiming races???

What I am saying is to make conditions in a low level allowance race similar to a claiming race. I was just using that (non winner of 2) as an example.

That way, the playing field would be level and horses could run where they belong and not worrying about being claimed.

I was just responding to your post about the majority of races being claiming and that those horses need meds or no races will fill.

No, we don't run our horses in claiming races. It stinks because, we haven't had a horse that can run through their allowance conditions. So, being fools, we keep running them msw (trying different tracks looking for easier company) where they don't belong until we finally retire them.

Then, we have to pay thousands more to get them retrained as riding horses before we find them homes.

We are pretty much going broke. This is our best foal crop yet with a Concerto and Cozzene out of 2 allowance producing mares so this might be our breakout crop. It better be as 7 years is a long time to struggle.....

Our homebred Arabian did win msw/allownace, and is multi-stakes placed but no luck with thoroughbreds.

However, we are not going to sacrifice our ethics or the horses to make money.

Do you run horses in claiming races? Your question right back at ya.......

[larrygene]

pokey, please do me and the industry a favor. I am not being facetious when I ask you to tell people if you go broke trying to race as you do that it was not the horses or the game of racing but our own ideas of how the game should be played that put you under. The way you want to play is going to doom you to failure!!! Why do you think 80% of horses are running in claiming events??? They are cheap because they are either naturally slow or have issues that cause them to be slow!!! Your thoughts are noble ones but in all practicality your way does not work and will not make money.

Obviously you have deep pockets if you have been playing the game your way for 7 years with little or no positive results, meaning making money!!! You have to put a horse where they can compete, pure and simple.

Yes I love the claiming game and have been pretty successful. You can make good money if you understand the rules. I have expounded on this in other threads. Everyone wants a stakes horse but they are few and far between. That's why people pay millions for a fast horse.

I wish you the best but I honestly believe you will need more than luck, more like divine intervention!!

Larrygene

[pokeyman]

Larry, we TOTALLY need divine intervention!!! LOL

I don't know if you have been following my threads. We lost our best mare (produced 6 msw/allowance winners and 3 six figure earners) to a uterine rupture this spring. Then, we lost her foal. So, for breeders like us with 3 mares, it was another major blow. Of course, we had just bought the mare last year and this was our first foal by her....*sigh*

We started by buying at auction and racing. We now, are focused on breeding in a Regional market. Bought high quality mares. Figured 3 high quality mares were better than 6 average.

So, our first regional crop is this year.

However, have one in training now in NY and a yearling that we dream big over. The one in training is a NJ Bred and the yearling is a NY bred. This crop are Mass-Breds. So, hopefully, with the regional slant we will do ok. The mares are good mares from good families.

It's tough to compete open on the East.....

Now, can you see why we bang our heads against the wall with our horses running clean against those on meds. It might not seem like much but what if the drugs give them a 5 second advantage. That's a length. That could be the difference between a check or not.

Our horses could do well as claimers (judging by the times and beyers) but I just don't have the heart for it...especially with geldings. It's too hard to lose track of them and there is always a fear that the horse gets "lost" by trainers who dump them rather than place them in homes.

So, yes...we need divine intervention so if you can put in a call that would be swell!

[Outermonvolia]

I don't think you are benefiting the horse if you continually run them over their head. After a while they will get depressed and may become unhappy. I abhor running a horse at a level where they can't compete, its not fair to the horse. I knew of a farm in Maryland that raised and raced homebreds. Each year they would race a couple of dozen horses. For ten years they never won a single race because they always ran their horses over their head.

[pokeyman]

I agree. That's why you try to find easier tracks for easier competition. Not all msw/allowance races are created equal! Or, you can breed or buy state bred horses to help with competition..which we figured out a bit late!

Also, that's why I am for low level allowance races with conditions similar to claiming but without tags....

[Heidilady]

I agree. That's why you try to find easier tracks for easier competition. Not all msw/allowance races are created equal! Or, you can breed or buy state bred horses to help with competition..which we figured out a bit late!

Also, that's why I am for low level allowance races with conditions similar to claiming but without tags....

You took the words out of my mouth I was going to say that not even all G1s are created equal. I think the impression of the horses running against BB in the Preakness tells you right there. The right trainer can find the right spot and it doesn't have to be an over-their-head spot. Have you looked at optional claiming? Just don't go in for a tag?

[louis finochio]

T: Clare used to gallop for trainer Chris Spectert at Santa Anita, that was before you came south. Clare is from the old country across the pond, she is a very nice person lots of class, she loves her horses as you do. You're going to make a top class trainer, as you pay attention to detail like Carla gains. See you in the morning, your friend Louis.

[Tucumcari]

Aw Lou, you're so sweet, my biggest fan!!!
I know Chris as well though not from California. I met him in Kentucky in Lexington with a mutual friend. He has the most amazing place not far from Keeneland!
And she is a very fine human. I am fortunate to have met so may great people in my life's travels!
I look forward to seeing you Louis!

[larrygene]

pokey, I hear what you are saying. We all have our stories of losing mares and /or foals. I lost my best mare and foal last year. This year one of my best mares aborted 3 weeks before her due date. IT'S TOUGH!!!! You are not alone when it comes to misery. You joined the club when you bought your first broodmare even if you didn't know it at the time.

I have had several friends that got into the game and had your noble ideas. They are no longer in the game. The high costs and deep disappointments drove them out. And it will YOU!!!! No one can battle forever without a victory every now and then. The game as it is played today will not allow you to win. Sorry, but those are the facts. Either you change or get out of the racing part and stay with the breeding and selling part. The industry is NOT going to change at least in the near future. This should be a fun business but somewhere along the way it needs to make money!! I'm sure you agree. Again, either you change because the industry is not!!!

Best of Luck,
Larrygene