BC folks what is the word on Hastings purses and days for next year? Word going around Alberta Fall Mixed sale was that all Alberta trainers were having their stall allocations for next spring to make room for a flood of trainers from Hastings.
Questions:
1. Are there really that many trainers at Hastings that want to come run in Alberta?
2. Are there really that many BC owners who are willing to let their trainers take the owners horses to Alberta?
What's the word on Hastings next year?
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Tucumcari
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I am not in BC, but I did hear that the purses are to be cut 20%. Which I believe would make the pots in Alberta better. So it doesn't really sound like a bad idea to run there. Same kind of track (bullring), lesser competition, bigger purses, fewer taxes, cheaper to live in a better home. Almost would be the smart thing to do in the situatin that is unfolding in BC.
Tucumcari:
Other than the tracks being bull rings, there isn't much in common. Higher altitude, drier air, and except at the maiden bottom level, I haven't seen any BC horses ship in and win for fun so I'm not convinced the money would be easy for an entire barn. On the whole I've only noticed a couple of trainers over the past 10 years have been able to ship to Alberta and go home with their trip paid for. Most who try go home with only a small piece or nothing.
On the owners side, if you can't watch your horse in person, wouldn't you want to run somewhere with a little more prestige? I could see trainers who own most/all of the horses they train making the move, I'm just not sure the owners for whom money is no object wouldn't rather pay bills to a trainer in California rather than Alberta. Just asking the question, how do the BC people feel on the subject?
Other than the tracks being bull rings, there isn't much in common. Higher altitude, drier air, and except at the maiden bottom level, I haven't seen any BC horses ship in and win for fun so I'm not convinced the money would be easy for an entire barn. On the whole I've only noticed a couple of trainers over the past 10 years have been able to ship to Alberta and go home with their trip paid for. Most who try go home with only a small piece or nothing.
On the owners side, if you can't watch your horse in person, wouldn't you want to run somewhere with a little more prestige? I could see trainers who own most/all of the horses they train making the move, I'm just not sure the owners for whom money is no object wouldn't rather pay bills to a trainer in California rather than Alberta. Just asking the question, how do the BC people feel on the subject?
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Tucumcari
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Dave C wrote:Tucumcari:
Other than the tracks being bull rings, there isn't much in common. Higher altitude, drier air, and except at the maiden bottom level, I haven't seen any BC horses ship in and win for fun
I believe Dave Forster has shipped and won for fun in the past... Canmor with the exception of Notis Otis has been fairly sucessful ?... I don't know about the current times as I have little intrest in racing at either BC or Alberta. For the record, My intrest is only in the fact that I do have some friends in BC and my best friend in life is in Alberta, and I hope them all the best.
As for the horses in Alberta a geat many trainers show up in BC every fall looking for bad maidens, etc that are or aren't competetive, in order to bolster the horse populaion. And they are able to be very competetive at a price higher than they would have been in BC. I can come up with names if pressed, but it would be just off the top of my head... Jade Peony comes to mind. A grey filly Roy Rawson /Mel Snow had that was a Bennet horse who I think was still running in the last few years (I think). Eternal Secrecy, allowance/ low level stake to low level claimer to consistant mid level claimer. Would be an example of those... Horses I personally know who couldn't compete at either track ... Letsimpress(IRE), Cliff's Of Dover.
Horses I personally sold to Alberta from California that were on a downward spiral here..., Allright, Troubled last year but a consistant mid level claimer this year, Deputy Spy, Don't know what he's done, haven't bothered to pay attention. And a couple more I can't think of at the moment...
On the whole I've only noticed a couple of trainers over the past 10 years have been able to ship to Alberta and go home with their trip paid for. Most who try go home with only a small piece or nothing.
The only people who do ship with any regularity are shipping for easier pickings in stake competition. As I mentioned Forster and Canmor. Both with success. I don't know who would ship a low level claimer to run.
On the owners side, if you can't watch your horse in person, wouldn't you want to run somewhere with a little more prestige? I could see trainers who own most/all of the horses they train making the move, I'm just not sure the owners for whom money is no object wouldn't rather pay bills to a trainer in California rather than Alberta. Just asking the question, how do the BC people feel on the subject?
Well if you couldn't run in your backyard, would you rather pay about $60 US or maybe $40 CDN? And run for about the same money (before the exchange rate), against lesser competition. If you are paying the $60 then you have to deal with the droppers from S. Cal and the "super" trainers in N Cal who hit at a big number all of the time. If yu are paying the $40 then you have to run against (no offense) Alberta breds. Criss cross.
Plus who cares about prestige of location when you have a horse that runs for bottoms, how about winning with the horse and MAYBE having it pay it's way.
Then from a trainer's point of view... In California you bring BC breds to To compete. Can they compete, ya. But there's worker'scompensation that is outrageous, housing.. also expensive, the exchange rate (although good for the CDN dollar right now) does make things less affordable. Where as life in Alberta is significantly cheaper than both BC and California. They have one tax. Provincial Sales Tax which last I heard was about 7%. That's significant. Makes more sense if you are trying to make a living to go to Alberta.
I realize I am not in BC at the moment, but I did spend 10 years of my life in racing there, and have heard this discussed for years. I hope that my friends don't have to move. Life in BC is fantastic! Most people have families and roots there and would hesitate to move anywhere.
Hi Dave C,
As of right now the only thing that is going around for next year is rumors and talk.....nothing has been finalized.
IF the purses are cut 20% than Alberta is a much better option for people with cheaper horses as the costs here in BC (at the track) are astronomical for feed,blacksmiths etc.
Hastings horses have always done quite well in Alberta.Terry Jordan horses seemed to win every time they ran their this year (True Metropolitan etc.)The people in Alberta seem to like our horses as well.....one trainer shipped 2 horses their this spring and they both were claimed for double what they were running for here the year before.
There may be a few trainers who might ship their next year but i havent heard anyone proclaim that as of yet.You might see a few of the better type horses head of for the huge purses at Woodbine and some owners may elect just to send horses to trainers already in Alberta.You may also see more people just ship out and run.Winnipeg also seems to end up with quite a few of our Hastings horses every year.
Check back in a month or 2 and i could probably give you more input.
Ryeno
As of right now the only thing that is going around for next year is rumors and talk.....nothing has been finalized.
IF the purses are cut 20% than Alberta is a much better option for people with cheaper horses as the costs here in BC (at the track) are astronomical for feed,blacksmiths etc.
Hastings horses have always done quite well in Alberta.Terry Jordan horses seemed to win every time they ran their this year (True Metropolitan etc.)The people in Alberta seem to like our horses as well.....one trainer shipped 2 horses their this spring and they both were claimed for double what they were running for here the year before.
There may be a few trainers who might ship their next year but i havent heard anyone proclaim that as of yet.You might see a few of the better type horses head of for the huge purses at Woodbine and some owners may elect just to send horses to trainers already in Alberta.You may also see more people just ship out and run.Winnipeg also seems to end up with quite a few of our Hastings horses every year.
Check back in a month or 2 and i could probably give you more input.
Ryeno
"The easiest way to end up with a million dollars in the horseracing business is to start with 3 million!"
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geowarrior
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Although Alberta is probably still cheaper to live in than B.C., which has to be the oddest place in the universe in terms of its varying political climate, I don't think Alberta is as cheap as it once was. Health care costs in both provinces are rising (or so I heard) and house prices in larger cities like Calgary and Edmonton are pretty high, although perhaps have not reached Vancouver levels yet. Places like Lethbridge are probably still not too bad as far as cost of living goes. Given that Calgary is the oil capital of Canada, and oil prices still pretty high there is a lot of money floating around. That could be both good and bad for racing. It could put pressure on prices of suitable land for breeding and boarding, but on the other hand if channeled properly could translate into good breeders programs and good purses, except why would one be concerned about a little industry like racing when there's oil (I'm a geologist so I've had some dealings with the oil industry). But I have to say that all the time I lived in Manitoba (I left there about five years ago), I'm not sure I even knew they had racing in Alberta except for the Calgary Stampede. One must never forget the GST though because it will never go away.
Ryeno:
You seem to be confirming my suspicion that the decision to reduce stalls in Alberta is being done purely on speculation. I just can't see many trainers deciding to move their whole barns here.
Everybody:
Thanks for your opinions. We all see what we want to see in terms of the horses moving back and forth. Yes, Terry Jordan and David Forrester have done very well shipping in, beyond them no one else win consistently. They also tend to ship in to the week divisions and this year they had plenty to choose from and that should certainly continue into next year in the older male category as all the good older geldings we had a few years back have moved on and the 3yo of this year don't look like they're going to pick up the slack.
I also see all the horses one of my trainers bought down in Hastings this August. Of the 6 inexpensive horses purchased, 3 never galloped before being shipped to Sask. Two have raced, but that was so they could maybe contribute to their bills while they were being shopped to off track buyers (one to the wagons, one to the sport horse). The other raced and won after fininshing 2nd twice, for a big drop from where she was running at Hastings. The trainer only wants her back for the 4f races in the spring and then wants her gone to Sask. My point being that the trainers from Alberta buying horses at Hastings aren't necessarily buying racehorses, they just may be looking to make a quick buck on a resale, because there are more resale options in Alberta than BC.
In terms of quality comparisons you can't compare claiming prices straight up to determine the comparitive quality of races. For example, M4-5000 at Hastings runs for about the same purse as M7000 at Northlands. They are approximately about the same calibre of horses. Claiming prices and purse levels differ quite significantly between the two tracks so it takes some careful study to figure out where one horse might fit in on the other track, even if the completely different environments and differences in surface don't affect the horse.
On the subject of owners, the owners I know, for whom money is never a consideration with their horses, race their homebreds in Alberta, but they also have horses at Woodbine and/or various tracks up and down the east coast, as well as in California. Although I do know some Alberta owners race in BC, most that I have talked to seem to have the attitude that if they can't be there in person to watch their horse, they want to run with the big boys.
To sum up what I'm trying to get at, I just don't see a big influx happening next year and I think Stampede Park is fantasizing a little bit in notifying trainers now that they aren't going to get stalls that trainers from Hastings may never apply for. I'm really not looking for an argument on the relative strengths of the horse populations, I'd just really like to know if their really is talk around Hastings of a mass exodus.
You seem to be confirming my suspicion that the decision to reduce stalls in Alberta is being done purely on speculation. I just can't see many trainers deciding to move their whole barns here.
Everybody:
Thanks for your opinions. We all see what we want to see in terms of the horses moving back and forth. Yes, Terry Jordan and David Forrester have done very well shipping in, beyond them no one else win consistently. They also tend to ship in to the week divisions and this year they had plenty to choose from and that should certainly continue into next year in the older male category as all the good older geldings we had a few years back have moved on and the 3yo of this year don't look like they're going to pick up the slack.
I also see all the horses one of my trainers bought down in Hastings this August. Of the 6 inexpensive horses purchased, 3 never galloped before being shipped to Sask. Two have raced, but that was so they could maybe contribute to their bills while they were being shopped to off track buyers (one to the wagons, one to the sport horse). The other raced and won after fininshing 2nd twice, for a big drop from where she was running at Hastings. The trainer only wants her back for the 4f races in the spring and then wants her gone to Sask. My point being that the trainers from Alberta buying horses at Hastings aren't necessarily buying racehorses, they just may be looking to make a quick buck on a resale, because there are more resale options in Alberta than BC.
In terms of quality comparisons you can't compare claiming prices straight up to determine the comparitive quality of races. For example, M4-5000 at Hastings runs for about the same purse as M7000 at Northlands. They are approximately about the same calibre of horses. Claiming prices and purse levels differ quite significantly between the two tracks so it takes some careful study to figure out where one horse might fit in on the other track, even if the completely different environments and differences in surface don't affect the horse.
On the subject of owners, the owners I know, for whom money is never a consideration with their horses, race their homebreds in Alberta, but they also have horses at Woodbine and/or various tracks up and down the east coast, as well as in California. Although I do know some Alberta owners race in BC, most that I have talked to seem to have the attitude that if they can't be there in person to watch their horse, they want to run with the big boys.
To sum up what I'm trying to get at, I just don't see a big influx happening next year and I think Stampede Park is fantasizing a little bit in notifying trainers now that they aren't going to get stalls that trainers from Hastings may never apply for. I'm really not looking for an argument on the relative strengths of the horse populations, I'd just really like to know if their really is talk around Hastings of a mass exodus.
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JimbleBrimble
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Hastings:
Here's the deal.
In Alberta, you already have what you're going to get in terms of slots money.
The Vancouver area still has a higher concentration of population and track purses are due to rise considerably whenever slots are finally put in place. Trainers leaving Vancouver at this point are trading away the potential of the future for potential that is already known in the Alberta present.
Consider the purse differential between Alberta and BC as it stands and then decide where you'll likely want to be in ten or twenty years.
Then consider how much less expensive it will be for those already firmly entrenched in that location, than for those relocating there to begin anew.
Finally, assume that others are as reasonable as you've been when contemplating these variables.
Here's the deal.
In Alberta, you already have what you're going to get in terms of slots money.
The Vancouver area still has a higher concentration of population and track purses are due to rise considerably whenever slots are finally put in place. Trainers leaving Vancouver at this point are trading away the potential of the future for potential that is already known in the Alberta present.
Consider the purse differential between Alberta and BC as it stands and then decide where you'll likely want to be in ten or twenty years.
Then consider how much less expensive it will be for those already firmly entrenched in that location, than for those relocating there to begin anew.
Finally, assume that others are as reasonable as you've been when contemplating these variables.
JimbleBrimble:
How you analyzed the situation is how I believe most BC horseman will see the situation, which is why I don't believe any significant number of horsemen will move.
I come to the opposite conclusion however when I look at the outlook for the two jurisdictions. In Alberta we have a government that has been openly supportive of the racing industry. From east of the Rockies I have not seen the government support for the racing industry in BC that would have gotten the slots to Hastings along time ago.
Stampede Park has been a financial black hole on the racing industry for years. The harness horsemen are running their last races there in the next few weeks, the thoroughbreds finish run for the last time next spring. The TB's subsidize purses at StP so that purses at NP and StP are the same. The harness horses do not and consequently purses are 50 to 60% higher at NP than StP. Furthermore StP has been receiving operating subsidies that also could be used for purse money, as well as declining to put in the horsemans alotment of slot machines because it would compete with their casino elsewhere on the grounds. Even if the new track does not open immediately, there will be a lot more money going into NP purses by 2008.
Even if the currently proposed new track for Calgary does not materialize, there is still plenty of suitable land available to build a project sooner or later. I am not real familiar with the situation at Hastings, but I understand that there is not enough room to expand the existing track, and no suitable land available in the lower mainland to build a replacement track (correct me if I'm wrong, I started this thread to get information on such subjects). If the current Calgary proposal gets operating by 2008 as currently projected, there will be additional slot money, management interested in promoting racing in a wealthy market, and a 1 mile track. This could happen before Hastings gets its' slot machines.
In terms of markets, although the lower mainland of BC has a much higher population, the Calgary/Edmonton corridor has a much larger economy. People have higher incomes, have a lower cost of living, and pay lower taxes (including no provincial sales tax) resulting in much higher disposable incomes to spend on gambling as well as owning horses. Furthermore, the population in this corridor is growing rapidly due both to high birthrates (a young population) and migration.
To me, when you look 10 to 20 years down the road, if I wanted to earn a living racing horses, I think I would far rather be in Alberta than BC. I admit I'm not well informed on the situation in BC so if I'm missing the most important advantages to racing in BC, please let me know.
How you analyzed the situation is how I believe most BC horseman will see the situation, which is why I don't believe any significant number of horsemen will move.
I come to the opposite conclusion however when I look at the outlook for the two jurisdictions. In Alberta we have a government that has been openly supportive of the racing industry. From east of the Rockies I have not seen the government support for the racing industry in BC that would have gotten the slots to Hastings along time ago.
Stampede Park has been a financial black hole on the racing industry for years. The harness horsemen are running their last races there in the next few weeks, the thoroughbreds finish run for the last time next spring. The TB's subsidize purses at StP so that purses at NP and StP are the same. The harness horses do not and consequently purses are 50 to 60% higher at NP than StP. Furthermore StP has been receiving operating subsidies that also could be used for purse money, as well as declining to put in the horsemans alotment of slot machines because it would compete with their casino elsewhere on the grounds. Even if the new track does not open immediately, there will be a lot more money going into NP purses by 2008.
Even if the currently proposed new track for Calgary does not materialize, there is still plenty of suitable land available to build a project sooner or later. I am not real familiar with the situation at Hastings, but I understand that there is not enough room to expand the existing track, and no suitable land available in the lower mainland to build a replacement track (correct me if I'm wrong, I started this thread to get information on such subjects). If the current Calgary proposal gets operating by 2008 as currently projected, there will be additional slot money, management interested in promoting racing in a wealthy market, and a 1 mile track. This could happen before Hastings gets its' slot machines.
In terms of markets, although the lower mainland of BC has a much higher population, the Calgary/Edmonton corridor has a much larger economy. People have higher incomes, have a lower cost of living, and pay lower taxes (including no provincial sales tax) resulting in much higher disposable incomes to spend on gambling as well as owning horses. Furthermore, the population in this corridor is growing rapidly due both to high birthrates (a young population) and migration.
To me, when you look 10 to 20 years down the road, if I wanted to earn a living racing horses, I think I would far rather be in Alberta than BC. I admit I'm not well informed on the situation in BC so if I'm missing the most important advantages to racing in BC, please let me know.
THe situation in Alberta is maybe not as rosy as being painted. If the new development does not get off the ground there will be no where to run in the spring of 2008 for TB's as Standardbreds are running at NP then and the season next year is done Sept. 30 to accomadate the standardbreds at NP so people in the industry are already looking elsewhere for employment, once we lose them it will be tough to get them back and I don't believe BC trainers or owners are going to flood over to Alberta when they know how precarious the venue is now. It all hinges on the new track which no one seems to be able to tell if it is going. PRETTY SCAREY !!!
I was not trying to present the Alberta situation as rosy, merely pointing out that there is a lot of upside potential to the Alberta market if things can ever get sorted out with Calgary. The fact that there are Alberta horsemen who refuse to race at either track in Alberta because of the management, particularly of the racing secretary, should give pause to anyone thinking that Alberta might be a good place to race. Management problems are fixable however, as are most of the problems facing the industry in Alberta. Whether or not they actually get fixed is another matter.
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JimbleBrimble
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Dave C wrote: JimbleBrimble:
How you analyzed the situation is how I believe most BC horseman will see the situation, which is why I don't believe any significant number of horsemen will move.
I come to the opposite conclusion however when I look at the outlook for the two jurisdictions. In Alberta we have a government that has been openly supportive of the racing industry. From east of the Rockies I have not seen the government support for the racing industry in BC that would have gotten the slots to Hastings along time ago.
Stampede Park has been a financial black hole on the racing industry for years. The harness horsemen are running their last races there in the next few weeks, the thoroughbreds finish run for the last time next spring. The TB's subsidize purses at StP so that purses at NP and StP are the same. The harness horses do not and consequently purses are 50 to 60% higher at NP than StP. Furthermore StP has been receiving operating subsidies that also could be used for purse money, as well as declining to put in the horsemans alotment of slot machines because it would compete with their casino elsewhere on the grounds. Even if the new track does not open immediately, there will be a lot more money going into NP purses by 2008.
Even if the currently proposed new track for Calgary does not materialize, there is still plenty of suitable land available to build a project sooner or later. I am not real familiar with the situation at Hastings, but I understand that there is not enough room to expand the existing track, and no suitable land available in the lower mainland to build a replacement track (correct me if I'm wrong, I started this thread to get information on such subjects). If the current Calgary proposal gets operating by 2008 as currently projected, there will be additional slot money, management interested in promoting racing in a wealthy market, and a 1 mile track. This could happen before Hastings gets its' slot machines.
In terms of markets, although the lower mainland of BC has a much higher population, the Calgary/Edmonton corridor has a much larger economy. People have higher incomes, have a lower cost of living, and pay lower taxes (including no provincial sales tax) resulting in much higher disposable incomes to spend on gambling as well as owning horses. Furthermore, the population in this corridor is growing rapidly due both to high birthrates (a young population) and migration.
To me, when you look 10 to 20 years down the road, if I wanted to earn a living racing horses, I think I would far rather be in Alberta than BC. I admit I'm not well informed on the situation in BC so if I'm missing the most important advantages to racing in BC, please let me know.
Hitting the bottom line first in your response, quite clearly you are already IN Alberta. If memory serves me correctly, this isn't about you, rather, it is about the potential for BC horsemen to pick-up stake and move to Alberta.
It just seems a no-brainer that with the "promise" of slots showing up for the first time in the not-too-terribly-distant (so they think) future, the upward trajectory for BC T'bred racing has a greater angle than that of its Alberta counterpart.
As most of us know, slots are already AT the major tracks in Alberta, and we already know what is there, after that fact.
Racing in Alberta has a couple of elements that remain risky variables seemingly at work in the near future:
(a) Why move from a site that is a mere golf shot from central Calgary to a place out in the toolies and hope that casino players will follow? It is all about convenience. (Vancouver's track, while not quite as central as Stampede Park is, is certainly only a short, navigable distance from mid-town)
(b) With two racing entities of similar magnitude in Alberta, the potential for each being limited by the other's ineptitude is a serious concern. What happens to Northlands if Stampede implodes before the new track can be built? Maybe Northlands gets all the dates, or maybe there is a mass exodus of horseflesh from the province. (unless Northlands can pull off daytime thoroughbred cards and night time harness cards (or something similar) then there will be a weakened link in the chain if that string of events evolves to take place.
Furthermore, to compare the present level of Hastings competition to that of Alberta, it seems quite noteworthy that anybody with a decent stakes horse at Hastings can take it to Alberta and plunder the locals. How often do we see true Alberta-based runners go to Hastings and come home with the bacon? (sure there is the occasional Raylene, but I'd venture to state that most of the stakes purses moved from one province to another are going from east to west).
My best guess, is that there will be no noticeable alteration which shifts BC horsemen to Alberta in the next few years. (***maybe I should qualify that based on the eventual arrival of slots at Hastings)