The following TB had career ending injuries in racing.

[louis finochio]

Saint Cloud 3X5 Hail to Reason----------4X5 Nashua------------9 Ph.

Verkade-------4X5 Nashua-----------------------------------------8 Ph.

Famous Flash---------5X5 Nearctic------------5X5 Bold Ruler-----7 Ph.

Five Star Cat---------5X5X5 Northern Dancer--------3X5 Key to the Mint=Rabelais------------------------------------------------------12 Ph.

[madelyn]

Oh for heaven's sake.. and this mare, Dun Legal, is still sound at 18 and had 116 injury-free starts with who knows how much Phalaris...

NASRULLAH 3S x 5D 2 2 (2) (0) 15.63% 4x4 18.76%
NEARCO 4S x 6S x 6D 3 2 (2) (0) 9.38% 4x5 11.34%
BLENHEIM2 5s x 7d x 6D x 6d 4 3 (1) (2) 7.03% 5x5 7.65%
TOURBILLON 6S x 7s x 5d 3 3 (1) (2) 5.47% 5x6 6.09%
ST SIMON 9s x 8S x 8S x 9s x 9S x 9s x 9S x 8S x 9S x 8S x 9S x 9D x 9d x 9D x 9D x 8D x 9D x 9D x 9d x 9d x 9D x 9D 22 13 (9) (4) 5.27% 5x6 5.66%*
MUMTAZ MAHAL 5s x 7d x 7d 3 2 (0) (2) 4.69% 5x6 5.83%
HYPERION 6S x 5D 2 2 (2) (0) 4.69% 5x6 6.73%
SARDANAPALE 5s x 8S x 7D 3 3 (2) (1) 4.30% 6x6 4.94%
TEDDY 7S x 8s x 8S x 7D x 7D x 7d x 8d 7 6 (3) (3) 4.30% 6x6 4.88%
THE TETRARCH 6s x 8S x 8d x 8d x 8D x 7D 6 3 (2) (1) 3.91% 6x6 4.30%
GAINSBOROUGH 8s x 7S x 7d x 6D 4 3 (1) (2) 3.52% 6x6 3.71%
PHALARIS 6S x 8S x 8D x 7D x 8d 5 3 (2) (1) 3.52% 6x6 4.30%
etc.

[louis finochio]

Dun Legal has 4 crosses of Phalaris in her 5 generation pedigree and 11 crosses of NP.

In todays time frame we are seeing 8-12 crossses of Phalaris in our modern day TB and its not bringing back the soundness in the breed.

[Des]

Louis,


Can that same research show the numbers of multiple winners and stakes winners from those crosses?

If the ratio is least 4 to 5 times as much winners, I'd be willing to take the risk with that cross. Wouldn't you?

[CA Michael]

I'd like to see a compilation of breakdowns by color.

If more bays break down than grays, then I will never breed to a bay horse again.

[louis finochio]

Des: When I research a stallion, I breakdown the sire lines of the mares that are bred to each stallion.

Lets set the table, and I'll give you an example of how I research those mares that are bred to each stallion.

Dynaformer was bred to the following mares of each sire line.

Ben Brush---------4 mares---------4 Winners---------2 SW

Chaucer---------9 mares---------3 winners

Fair Play---------12 mares--------8 winners-----------4 SW

Gainsborough------18 mares------6 winners

Hurry On----------2 mares---------1 winner

Peter Pan---------12----------------9 winners-------- 3 SW

Prince Rose-------13 mares--------6 winners

Questionnaire-----6 mares---------6 winners---------3 SW

Dynaformer produced superior nicks when bred to mares from the sire line of Ben Brush-----Fair Play----Peter Pan----and Questionnaire.

This is how I research each stallion to find which sire lines our producing those superior runners.

[LaTroienne]

Louis...I actually don't agree with Dynaformer breeding the best with mares from the Ben Brush line.

Witness: most of his top runners are from these lines:


All Phalaris line damsires:
BARBARO
FILM MAKER
RISKAVERSE
PERFECT DRIFT
DYNEVER
SAND SPRINGS
EISHIN HAMPTON
MYSTERY GIVER

SPEARMINT LINE:

CRITICAL EYE


FAIR PLAY:

STARRER


Those are his TOP EARNERS: with not one with a damsire from the Ben Brush line...

[louis finochio]

Those mares from those sire lines were all fictional, I used them to explain how I research each stallion.

[LaTroienne]

Those mares from those sire lines were all fictional, I used them to explain how I research each stallion.

Ah. Thanks. Sorry.

[angelsprite]

Louis,
There is absolutely nothing scientific about pulling out the names of horses who have broken down and looking to see how much Phalaris they have. Phalaris is a genetic bottleneck descended from Stockwell. You have Stockwell, Birdcatcher, West Australian (Matchem line), Thormanby, and Bonnie Scotland, that still pop up in 8 gens. You get roughly 20 to 40 percent Phalaris linebreeding in EVERY Thoroughbred. That's because the gene pool was small starting out, so all of the TBs today have certain common ancestors. Who they come down through in sources common to both sire and dam is the most important determination of the quality of foals. Multiple quality lines to each common ancestor seems to be the best way to produce a good horse.
The reason Thoroughbred soundness has deteriorated is because there has been a loss of good bone in the breed and that results from the popular myths against linebreeding. Linebreeding is how you develop a breed, obtain the qualities you are looking for and then fix them in type. When TB breeders deviated from the sound breeding practices of men who bred for the track and began focusing more on commercial value of foals for sales, that's when the Triple Crown winners ceased and soundness began to vanish. You can't get rid of Phalaris, but never fear, our gene pool is now wide enough, with over 30,000 TBs produced annually that it's harder to get a 5 generation linebreeding than it is to get away from it. If it bothers you that we have the limited number of sirelines that we have, and the small number of horses far back in the pedigree that we do, you can comfort yourself with this knowledge. Many thousands of years ago, man faced some sort of environmental challenges that reduced the human population of the planet to just about 5,000 individuals. You will marry, have kids, and you won't consider your spouse to be close kin. That's because there are so many humans now. There are also many many TBs now, so it'll be okay.
By the way, Dormello stud in Texas has one Isonomy tail male and one St. Simon tail male stallion. You should check them out.

[louis finochio]

Sprite: Do a search on The 7 commandments of Breeding, author Louis Finochio. I know you will like this old thread, as you are on the same pedigree page as me. Good Luck, Louis.

The thread is on page 4.

[angelsprite]

Louis,
Be happy to do the search. We have a 97% wastage rate in young TBs and at least 97% are the Phalaris sireline. Not to confuse causation with correlation, the fact is, trainers run all their horses through the same program usually, fill them full of anabolic steroids, cains, you name it, and send them out to run when they know the horse is right there at the point of breaking down. They don't care about the horse. They care about getting one more race out of a doomed animal before they put another horse in that stall to collect the day rate. I'm not saying there isn't a genetic component to the breakdowns we are seeing. I believe there is. But, I don't think you can blame Phalaris. I think you have to blame the modern market driven breeding practices and the trainers who don't realize or don't care how fragile the athlete is. Just my thoughts. Louis, read my article on too many stallions under the link
Breeders brags and articles of interest on
www.texashorsemen.org

[louis finochio]

Sprite: The dont care trainers will squeeze the lemon dry, as they dont want to lose their day rate.

If we had a no med policy, those weak constution individuals wouldnt stand training.

When these med TB enter the breeding shed they will reproduce their like. Thanks for the Texas site, I enjoyed the articles.
Yours in Sport Louis.