Are new surfaces the same as Turf?

[tbrace]

Well, stuck here in the airport, good time to ask this question:

Are the new surfaces going to perform like grass? Other than the statements by owners of grass oriented stallions, I don't see much proof of this.

NBC news did a thing on artificial tracks the other night, and they said there is no way to handicap them now. Again, is this a true statement?

They are kinder to the horses, that much is obvious. But, I am not sure that they will be like grass.

I know we are not rushing out to breed all the mares to grass sires.
Maybe we should be?

[Des]

The reason why they are saying it is like grass is because horses that performs well on grass are taking a liking to this type of synthetic track. Many stakes races at Hollywood were filled by some grass horses who don't usually do well on dirt. There were a few winners too.

[madelyn]

This is an old harp.. Polytrack was developed in Europe as a training surface for turf horses. I got up close and personal with it at Keeneland and it is a sort of smooth, springy surface so yes, it feels much more like turf than dirt. The biggest difference I can think of between dirt and turf is that the horses run through dirt while they run over turf. And Polytrack is a surface they run over. Ever since it was announced, I've been working with my mares' pedigrees, etc., to work on breeding in characteristics I think will be successful on that surface. You can ignore the "statements by owners of grass oriented stallions" if you think it is false posturing, but you can't ignore the results. Look at all the longshots winning on AWT and look at the grass in their pedigrees. And look at all the favored dirt-only horses eating Polytrack dust, figuratively speaking of course.

[vineyridge]

Someone who is an exercise rider at Fair Hill, where they have put down a Tapeta training track, says on CoTH that it feels very different when you're riding on it. She doesn't think it's softer than dirt, though, which she feels is softer (?) than turf once you get through the grass inch because of the constant working of the surface to a depth of several inches.

She also pointed out that there may be some curing time for the wax material, as turf horses initially did much better at Turfway, but the last results from that meet have been far more consistent with dirt performances.

I suppose some computer statistics geeks will do studies on the first seasons with the new tracks and tell us all how dirt and turf horses each did on each day of a season after a new track goes down.

[Ill-bred]

I think turf and Polytrack/Cushion Track are similar in the profile of winning race shape -- horses that conserve some energy until the second half of the race or those who can at least run an even race seem to do well.

But just because a horse likes one, it doesn't mean he'll like the other.

It's a major variable thrown into the handicapping process, but not impossible.

[bcassidy]

There are two reasons why some people say grass horses will out perform dirt horses on poly tracks. First, speed is not as dangerous on a poly track because it tends to take the energy out of the speed horses and sets up nicely for closers, as this is the running style of most grass races---these same people speculate that grass horses (with their inherent running style) will run better on poly tracks.
second, some horses who do not like dirt kicked in their face will not close on a dirt track (because the front runners are kicking tremendous amounts of dirt in their face if they get too close) and therefore these same horses when running on a poly surface can close on the speed horses because they do not have the "dirt in the face" problem to contend with.
I believe it will also affect the way jockeys choose to run their race because loose speed is not as dangerous on a poly track as it is on the dirt surface, therefore they will not be as hell bent to make the lead on a poly track as they would on a dirt course.

[Ill-bred]

According to some of the trainers and jocks at Turfway, kickback is still an issue at times. Both in spray and in wadded up balls of Polytrack that fly back or get stuck in horse's feet.

[bcassidy]

Obviously there is still kick back from a poly track but it doesn't bother the trailing horses the same way kick back from a dirt course does. Dirt and sand really sting some horses and they refuse to close on dirt tracks, you can see those horses almost trying to climb up a ladder as the spray hits them in the face--their head is held very high and they appear to be climbing to get out of the spray. From my limited poly track experiences I have yet to see such a reaction by a trailing horse on a poly surface.

[angelsprite]

If the horses are "running over" the polytrack, like turf, it will mean less fatigue and that will literally translate to fewer breakdowns. I love hearing this. I really hope it makes a difference for wellfare of the horses.

[tbrace]

I would have to agree with Vineyridge. There really hasn't been strong trends toward grass pedigrees at many of the new surface tracks. There are individual examples of dirt vs. grass, and grass vs. dirt pedigrees, but most of the "evidence" is anecdotal, and not supported by enough examples to establish statistical trends.

You can bet that the big players are trying to do that very thing as we speak.

It will be interesting to see what happens as we gather the data over two or three years.

[angelsprite]

Tbrace,
I bet they are too.

[Galejade]

Here in the UK we have mainly turf racing but we also have 3 polytrack circuits and I fibresand All weather surface,. Our experience is that the form is definitely not consistent between turf and polytrack with some horse doing better on one and some on the other but very very few run to the same level of form on both. The leading stallions on out polytracks are not the same as on the turf but that may be due to the fact that our polytrack racing is of a much lower grade than turf (the jury would still be out on that)
________
iolite vaporizer

[westover]

It is my understanding ithat the poly track is more like running on turf than dirt ie: heavier going. Stamina will be a stronger consideration i would think for running on it where as in the past most people seem to really focus on Speed for breeding their dirt horses.. As suggested i agree it will be difficult to handicap, until we can watch at least one full season of runners on it. I think it is good in some ways for the horses but does prevent some other obstacles. It was my own feeling that Woodbine should have put the poly on their training track and tried it, prior to re-doing the main track. The weather in Canada is so extreme and as we have seen there are some serious problems with it.

[angelsprite]

Westover,
Just wondering what sort of problems the weather is causing for the polytrack there. We don't have any polytrack surfaces in Texas, but we need it at Retama and Lone Star. Both of those tracks have serious surface problems and are considered "crippler" tracks.
I believe polytrack would be the way to go for them, since others have said polytrack remains very consistent.

[westover]

Hi Angel
This past fall they had some serious issues with the wax that holds the fibres together. The wax ended up settling to the bottom of the track so the fibres had nothing holding them together (i believe the Poly is made up carpet type fibres and silica, but don't quote me on that.) I was watching a race in late October, early November and there were huge clumps of poly flying through the air .. it looked bizarre.. with the cold the wax separated and settled to the bottom of the track.. i am going to see if i can locate the articles that were written up on it.. i believe one was in the blood horse. I do so much reading that i forget where i see things. My husband ran on the Poly when it was complete end of August and didn't win another race all season!! You definitly have to train on it to run on it which was part of his problem they train off of a private training centre. Hope that helps. I will send you the articles i find.