I think they both deserve the award for Champion Older Horse but Horse Of the Year should definitely go to Invasor. Discreet Cat beat Invasor early in the year. Lava Man's only loss came in the Breeder's Cup Classic. Discreet Cat may be the best horse period but by picking and choosing races especially not running in the Triple Crown and the Breeder's Cup he may not win any eclipse award. There is no eclipse for champion miler. Showing Up set track records on both dirt and turf. Lava Man won a Grade I on the Turf setting a track record and on the dirt he won the Santa Anita H., Pacific Classic, and Hollywood Gold Cup. Just think Lava Man, Discreet Cat, Barbaro, and Showing Up will most likely not win any eclipse awards.
Keith
Lava Man and Invasor-Co Champion Older Horses?
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Re: Lava Man and Invasor-Co Champion Older Horses?
Keith wrote:I think they both deserve the award for Champion Older Horse
Vote won't be that close. Whether people acknowledge it or not, there is an East Coast bias and since Lava Man couldn't win outside CA, he won't get the title. I agree he deserves some recognition -- it's hard not to be impressed with 4 G1 victories on the year at 10f on turf and dirt -- but at best he's going to sweep the CA titles.
Keith wrote:Discreet Cat may be the best horse period but by picking and choosing races especially not running in the Triple Crown and the Breeder's Cup he may not win any eclipse award.
MAY not
Will not. Period. What the hell is it with this horse? He did NOTHING to deserve consideration for ANY title. The hype over this animal is as idiotic as that over Bluegrass Cat.Keith wrote:Just think Lava Man, Discreet Cat, Barbaro, and Showing Up will most likely not win any eclipse awards.
Only Lava Man and Showing Up did enough to be considered for one.
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Rokeby Forever
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Lava Man had his chance in the BC Classic and Invasor dusted him. Why is there a discussion about this?
Sam is right! Discreet Cat's effort in the Hill N'Dale Mile reaffirmed that he's a fast horse, but until he beats something of real quality, he's another overhype. Forget that he once defeated Invasor - Invasor just never adapted to Dubai.
I think the only "hands down" Eclipse candidate is Dreaming Of Anna - she's miles better than the crop at this point.
Sam is right! Discreet Cat's effort in the Hill N'Dale Mile reaffirmed that he's a fast horse, but until he beats something of real quality, he's another overhype. Forget that he once defeated Invasor - Invasor just never adapted to Dubai.
I think the only "hands down" Eclipse candidate is Dreaming Of Anna - she's miles better than the crop at this point.
Picking and choosing races
I agree Discreet Cat does not deserve any eclipse awards but there is a possibilty he may be the best horse of this past year. The same could be said for Barbaro. Discreet Cat avoided competition and Barbaro broke down. Could have been the best horse is speculation and you see that alot in horse racing. How often do you hear people say that this or that horse may have been the best horse they have ever had followed with If.......?
I agree with you on Lava Man and Showing Up who have both set track records and won on dirt and turf. Diversity should be a strong factor who gets eclipse awards but there is a bias against Showing Up because he was mainly a turf horse. Showing Up raced all year on many different tracks but he is a three year old who mainly ran on grass. Barbaro and Bernardini were so over hyped like either horse was the next Secretariat or something. Prior to the Breeder's Cup competition avoided Bernardini. In the Preakness Bernardini beat a broke down Barbaro so what makes him so great? In the Travers he beats a broke down Bluegrass Cat. In the Jockey Club Gold Cup he wins a four horse field. Yes I agree his wins were impressive but the first time he faces real competition he gets beat and retires.
Who is the best three year old? Bernardini deserves it hands down without a question as he won the Preakness, Travers, and the Jockey Club Gold Cup eventhough competion avoided him and he avoided competition by not running in the Belmont S. He also avoids competition by retiring so soon. So he has a high stud fee based on speculation on how great he could have been. Same could be said for Smarty Jones who retired after his loss in the Belmont S. As good as Smarty Jones was what makes him deserving of a $100,000 stud fee?
Keith
I agree with you on Lava Man and Showing Up who have both set track records and won on dirt and turf. Diversity should be a strong factor who gets eclipse awards but there is a bias against Showing Up because he was mainly a turf horse. Showing Up raced all year on many different tracks but he is a three year old who mainly ran on grass. Barbaro and Bernardini were so over hyped like either horse was the next Secretariat or something. Prior to the Breeder's Cup competition avoided Bernardini. In the Preakness Bernardini beat a broke down Barbaro so what makes him so great? In the Travers he beats a broke down Bluegrass Cat. In the Jockey Club Gold Cup he wins a four horse field. Yes I agree his wins were impressive but the first time he faces real competition he gets beat and retires.
Who is the best three year old? Bernardini deserves it hands down without a question as he won the Preakness, Travers, and the Jockey Club Gold Cup eventhough competion avoided him and he avoided competition by not running in the Belmont S. He also avoids competition by retiring so soon. So he has a high stud fee based on speculation on how great he could have been. Same could be said for Smarty Jones who retired after his loss in the Belmont S. As good as Smarty Jones was what makes him deserving of a $100,000 stud fee?
Keith
Re: Picking and choosing races
Keith wrote:I agree Discreet Cat does not deserve any eclipse awards but there is a possibilty he may be the best horse of this past year.
Yeah well, Eclipses aren't awarded on the "possibility" of achievements so it's pretty offensive to even speak of him in the same category with horses who actually deserve a title this year.
Keith wrote:there is a bias against Showing Up because he was mainly a turf horse.
Which is the only title he has a chance in (turf horse) and deserves consideration for.
Keith wrote:As good as Smarty Jones was what makes him deserving of a $100,000 stud fee?
Nothing, but then there isn't a sire on the planet I feel should command a six figure stud fee before he even has foals hit the track.
Re: Lava Man and Invasor-Co Champion Older Horses?
[quote="Sam"][quote="Keith"]I think they both deserve the award for Champion Older Horse[/quote]
Vote won't be that close. Whether people acknowledge it or not, there is an East Coast bias and since Lava Man couldn't win outside CA, he won't get the title. I agree he deserves some recognition -- it's hard not to be impressed with 4 G1 victories on the year at 10f on turf and dirt -- but at best he's going to sweep the CA titles.
[quote="Keith"]Discreet Cat may be the best horse period but by picking and choosing races especially not running in the Triple Crown and the Breeder's Cup he may not win any eclipse award.[/quote]
MAY not Will not. Period. What the hell is it with this horse? He did NOTHING to deserve consideration for ANY title. The hype over this animal is as idiotic as that over Bluegrass Cat.
[quote="Keith"]Just think Lava Man, Discreet Cat, Barbaro, and Showing Up will most likely not win any eclipse awards.[/quote]
Only Lava Man and Showing Up did enough to be considered for one.[/quote]
Please dont compare Discreet Dat to Bluegrass Cat. Bluegrass couldnt hold Discreets jock strap.
Vote won't be that close. Whether people acknowledge it or not, there is an East Coast bias and since Lava Man couldn't win outside CA, he won't get the title. I agree he deserves some recognition -- it's hard not to be impressed with 4 G1 victories on the year at 10f on turf and dirt -- but at best he's going to sweep the CA titles.
[quote="Keith"]Discreet Cat may be the best horse period but by picking and choosing races especially not running in the Triple Crown and the Breeder's Cup he may not win any eclipse award.[/quote]
MAY not
Will not. Period. What the hell is it with this horse? He did NOTHING to deserve consideration for ANY title. The hype over this animal is as idiotic as that over Bluegrass Cat.
[quote="Keith"]Just think Lava Man, Discreet Cat, Barbaro, and Showing Up will most likely not win any eclipse awards.[/quote]
Only Lava Man and Showing Up did enough to be considered for one.[/quote]
Please dont compare Discreet Dat to Bluegrass Cat. Bluegrass couldnt hold Discreets jock strap.
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JimbleBrimble
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Re: Lava Man and Invasor-Co Champion Older Horses?
Keith wrote: Just think Lava Man, Discreet Cat, Barbaro, and Showing Up will most likely not win any eclipse awards.
Keith
None of them should (**for 2006)
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Rokeby Forever
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The only horse that's miles ahead of the rest of its division is Dreaming Of Anna. On any given day, I think any horse in any other division could be beaten.
I think 3 year old of the year should go to Henny Hughes. For what he did in 2006 (sprint), no three year old could have beaten him. Could Barbaro or any other 2006 early season breakdown have beaten Bernardini? Maybe yes, maybe no...but as far as outsprinting Henny Hughes, there wasn't a 3 year old on the planet that could have done it. Did Bernardini beat the best routers of his crop in 2006? Probably not...but Henny Hughes took on the best 3 year old sprinters (and older East Coast sprinters) and dusted them. It was just unfortunate that he set foot on the Churchill track and couldn't wait to get back in the barn that day.
Showing Up is the best of a terrific 3 year old turf crop...he, After Market, and Go Between are in the hands of really good horsemen and 2007 should be a great turf year with them competing.
I think 3 year old of the year should go to Henny Hughes. For what he did in 2006 (sprint), no three year old could have beaten him. Could Barbaro or any other 2006 early season breakdown have beaten Bernardini? Maybe yes, maybe no...but as far as outsprinting Henny Hughes, there wasn't a 3 year old on the planet that could have done it. Did Bernardini beat the best routers of his crop in 2006? Probably not...but Henny Hughes took on the best 3 year old sprinters (and older East Coast sprinters) and dusted them. It was just unfortunate that he set foot on the Churchill track and couldn't wait to get back in the barn that day.
Showing Up is the best of a terrific 3 year old turf crop...he, After Market, and Go Between are in the hands of really good horsemen and 2007 should be a great turf year with them competing.