http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36988
Three new BC races: BC Filly & Mare Sprint, Dirt Mile, and Juvenile Turf!!
New BC races!
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I like two of the new races.
I would have added a 2 mile race though on the dirt for 3 and up instead of the 2 year old juvenile race on the turf....I know people would hate it but it would help to increase the shrinking pool of stamina influences in the US. In my opinion, we're getting way too sprint oriented. Plus, I don't want anymore 2 year old million dollar races. There are numerous reasons why but that's another topic!
Maybe they'll also move the BC Steeplechase to the second day which would be neat.
I would have added a 2 mile race though on the dirt for 3 and up instead of the 2 year old juvenile race on the turf....I know people would hate it but it would help to increase the shrinking pool of stamina influences in the US. In my opinion, we're getting way too sprint oriented. Plus, I don't want anymore 2 year old million dollar races. There are numerous reasons why but that's another topic!
Maybe they'll also move the BC Steeplechase to the second day which would be neat.
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nferro9925
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I have some very mixed feelings on the new BC races, and the decision to stretch it out over two days.
My thoughts on the juvy turf is I am all for promoting turf races, but just can't go along with adding another juvenile race. I would rather see a 3 and up turf sprint.
I'm ok with the Dirt mile, but the mile and seventy at Monmouth is going to confuse the casual watcher. The boob tube announcers will have to be very specific in pointing out the mile configuration of Monmouth rules out running a race at a flat mile.
Why the heck is the fillies and mares spring going to be at 7 furlongs instead of six? The BC sprint is 6 furlongs, and the F&M sprint should be the same.
I DO NOT LIKE the idea of the BC being a two day event. It is difficult enough to set aside several hours of Saturday to watch all the BC races, now I will have to clear off a friday night, (assuming it will be in the eve.) to watch three races.
Best to all, Shergar
My thoughts on the juvy turf is I am all for promoting turf races, but just can't go along with adding another juvenile race. I would rather see a 3 and up turf sprint.
I'm ok with the Dirt mile, but the mile and seventy at Monmouth is going to confuse the casual watcher. The boob tube announcers will have to be very specific in pointing out the mile configuration of Monmouth rules out running a race at a flat mile.
Why the heck is the fillies and mares spring going to be at 7 furlongs instead of six? The BC sprint is 6 furlongs, and the F&M sprint should be the same.
I DO NOT LIKE the idea of the BC being a two day event. It is difficult enough to set aside several hours of Saturday to watch all the BC races, now I will have to clear off a friday night, (assuming it will be in the eve.) to watch three races.
Best to all, Shergar
I would have to agree on several points. I don't see the need for another 2 year old race. A two miler would have been splendid to showcase whatever stamina is left in this country. I also hope that they broadcast the races in the evening on Friday so we can enjoy them. You could easily run 11 races in one day...you just have an early post for the first race and no undercard races before hand. It can be done!
A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
I'd say the two day format is a trial run in hopes that it becomes an event like going to Churchill for the Oaks/Derby. I always thought it was stupid to run something other than a Breeders' Cup race on that card anyway so if the 2 day thing fails, they probably will card them all on the same day.
I happen to LOVE the idea of a turf race for 2yos, in fact, I wish they'd added a filly counterpart. I'd aim for that before I'd bother with the dirt race. There isn't enough emphasis on turf racing in this country and we're poorer for it, IMO.
The Dirt Mile idea was a long time coming. I mentioned a few months ago I thought it odd that there was no 'in-between' race on Breeders' Cup day; that you either ran 10f or 6f which didn't make much sense for horses who really are confirmed milers (bet the Doobie Bros. are pissed this race wasn't added for this year... they have probably run Discreet Cat and actually been able to make a case for him to get a year end title).
Not sure how I feel about the filly sprint. I'd feel better about it if they bothered to separate out the Eclipse Sprint titles and award a best male and best female sprinter. Maybe this is the first step.
I happen to LOVE the idea of a turf race for 2yos, in fact, I wish they'd added a filly counterpart. I'd aim for that before I'd bother with the dirt race. There isn't enough emphasis on turf racing in this country and we're poorer for it, IMO.
The Dirt Mile idea was a long time coming. I mentioned a few months ago I thought it odd that there was no 'in-between' race on Breeders' Cup day; that you either ran 10f or 6f which didn't make much sense for horses who really are confirmed milers (bet the Doobie Bros. are pissed this race wasn't added for this year... they have probably run Discreet Cat and actually been able to make a case for him to get a year end title).
Not sure how I feel about the filly sprint. I'd feel better about it if they bothered to separate out the Eclipse Sprint titles and award a best male and best female sprinter. Maybe this is the first step.
Shergar wrote:I DO NOT LIKE the idea of the BC being a two day event. It is difficult enough to set aside several hours of Saturday to watch all the BC races, now I will have to clear off a friday night, (assuming it will be in the eve.) to watch three races.
I agree - but will ESPN agree to what would likely be a 10-hour telecast? That's even longer than they run on Derby Day, and they split that time up between networks.
[quote="Sam"] I happen to LOVE the idea of a turf race for 2yos, in fact, I wish they'd added a filly counterpart. I'd aim for that before I'd bother with the dirt race. There isn't enough emphasis on turf racing in this country and we're poorer for it, IMO.
The Dirt Mile idea was a long time coming. I mentioned a few months ago I thought it odd that there was no 'in-between' race on Breeders' Cup day; that you either ran 10f or 6f which didn't make much sense for horses who really are confirmed milers.quote]
Wholeheartedly agree. I don't see why people are mad that 2yos get another race. 3yos and up have all but the Juvenile races so it's hardly overbalanced. I'm sure the breeders who have turf sires really wanted a chance to benefit more with greater focus and accolades for turf horses, particularly young ones. Harder to have an Eclipse champion 2yo colt if most of your progeny are turf horses too which I'm sure bugged them. You know I would find it hilarious if you had a horse win the Juvie Turf and then the Derby before the Juvie/Derby jinx is broken. Takes a versatile horse but I bet Barbaro could've done it. Once reason it could help turf racing promotion is you get a chance to get attached to a horse early on as opposed to end of their 3yo year or something. We just don't hear that much about young turf horses because what they heck are they pointing to at the end of the year? Nothing. And the dirt 2yos are thinking Derby. We could do with a Juvie Turf and then a higher profile Grand Slam of Turf. All this focus on dirt racing ignores a massive international market and a potentially big market here. Ignoring money? What on earth have they all been smoking? I'd like to avoid getting a whiff.
About the dirt mile, amen. I was ecstatic for that one. Now we won't see some horses being shoved into a distance they just don't belong at. It's worse than seeing sprinters forced into the Derby because you get screwed in 2 different races, seeing a talented animal where they shouldn't be.
The Dirt Mile idea was a long time coming. I mentioned a few months ago I thought it odd that there was no 'in-between' race on Breeders' Cup day; that you either ran 10f or 6f which didn't make much sense for horses who really are confirmed milers.quote]
Wholeheartedly agree. I don't see why people are mad that 2yos get another race. 3yos and up have all but the Juvenile races so it's hardly overbalanced. I'm sure the breeders who have turf sires really wanted a chance to benefit more with greater focus and accolades for turf horses, particularly young ones. Harder to have an Eclipse champion 2yo colt if most of your progeny are turf horses too which I'm sure bugged them. You know I would find it hilarious if you had a horse win the Juvie Turf and then the Derby before the Juvie/Derby jinx is broken. Takes a versatile horse but I bet Barbaro could've done it. Once reason it could help turf racing promotion is you get a chance to get attached to a horse early on as opposed to end of their 3yo year or something. We just don't hear that much about young turf horses because what they heck are they pointing to at the end of the year? Nothing. And the dirt 2yos are thinking Derby. We could do with a Juvie Turf and then a higher profile Grand Slam of Turf. All this focus on dirt racing ignores a massive international market and a potentially big market here. Ignoring money? What on earth have they all been smoking? I'd like to avoid getting a whiff.
About the dirt mile, amen. I was ecstatic for that one. Now we won't see some horses being shoved into a distance they just don't belong at. It's worse than seeing sprinters forced into the Derby because you get screwed in 2 different races, seeing a talented animal where they shouldn't be.
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana"
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Rokeby Forever
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I think most people would agree that the good turf horses are late developers...if you think the BC Juvie is "cursed," wait until the BJ Juvie Turf gets under way. LOL!!!
This is the only race with which I take exception. The idea with turfers is to give them time...unlike dirt racing in this country, all the BIG $$$ is for the older horse, save a few exceptions (WVa Derby and a few others). I don't like the concept of rushing grass horses because of the BC Turf Juvie and the Turf Handicap division suffers like the current Dirt Handicap Division with only geldings and lesser bred horses competing in it.
This is the only race with which I take exception. The idea with turfers is to give them time...unlike dirt racing in this country, all the BIG $$$ is for the older horse, save a few exceptions (WVa Derby and a few others). I don't like the concept of rushing grass horses because of the BC Turf Juvie and the Turf Handicap division suffers like the current Dirt Handicap Division with only geldings and lesser bred horses competing in it.
Rokeby Forever wrote:I think most people would agree that the good turf horses are late developers
Tell that to the Europeans or any other non-American. It's only this country that has the screwed up fascination with running on dirt.
Cause and effect. People in this country think most turf horses are late developers because this country does not (primarily) breed for turf. They breed for dirt and only try turf when it looks like the horse won't run on dirt, which means most horses don't even see turf until they are late 3yos. How many of those "Good turfers" who got good as they got older have half a dozen (bad) starts on the dirt as 2yos? Same thing for Steeplechasers. You don't think most people breed for those in this country, do you? Have you ever looked at the race records of most 'chasers? Turf racing in this country is an afterthought.
There's no incentive to run a 2yo on the grass here. The early aim for any 2yo in this country is the Kentucky Derby at early 3... why bother with the grass unless the colt just won't run on dirt?
Shift the focus. Write more races for 2yos on the grass and give them an incentive to run there -- a year end goal -- and you'll start seeing some precocious 2yo grass horses. Give them something to aim for in early May and you'll really see the superior grass horses early.
BTW, the first horse to win a stake at 2 and 3 this year did it on the grass... Franks bred Soldier's Dancer.
The ratios are scku'ed heavily to dirt racing in this country. There were 74 stakes for 2yo colts in the 4th quarter last year... NINE were for turf horses. 64 for 2yo fillies.. 11 were on the grass.
The Breeders' Cup Juvenile races are "cursed" because the media plays it up. Just like the RAN broodmare sire curse for the Derby... gee, that finally got broke. I would say most horses aiming for the BC 2yoT won't be trying to run in the Derby 6 months later so there won't be a "curse" unless the talking head idiots invent one.
As for the handicap divisions being in shambles.. That won't change until we kill all the commercial breeders and owners stop sending their charges to the farm after one season.
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Rokeby Forever
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Several racing circuits do have good turf programs for Juveniles (NYRA, Calder, Centennial, Woodbine...), but with no "goal" for a Juvenile on the grass, they aren't as hard pressed to impress when they're young. The BC Juvie has done this...how many Juveniles have been ruined in pursuit of winning the BC Juvie, or simply peaked too soon from winning it and never recovered?
I'm not sure the effects of being good "early" aren't felt overseas. Plenty of good ones in Europe don't make the progression from 2 to 3 (Arazi, King of Kings...).
And...I think that Barbaro disproves your notion that American breeders breed for the dirt and "wind up" on the grass with horses. I kind of think Dreaming Of Anna does, too. Just because owners race turf bred horses on the dirt doesn't mean that the horse really isn't turf meant.
I'm not sure the effects of being good "early" aren't felt overseas. Plenty of good ones in Europe don't make the progression from 2 to 3 (Arazi, King of Kings...).
And...I think that Barbaro disproves your notion that American breeders breed for the dirt and "wind up" on the grass with horses. I kind of think Dreaming Of Anna does, too. Just because owners race turf bred horses on the dirt doesn't mean that the horse really isn't turf meant.
Before You Read Note: there's probably some hole in my logic but I've tried to put down my thoughts before I collapsed in a heap of sleepiness. If things are unclear or I've been misunderstood I'll deal with that later. But I'm almost seeing double so I'll take that as a sign, g'night.
I have to disagree with the idea that the Breeders Cup Juvenile is a direct causation of ills for horses. Those 2yo races existed because the owners wanted them to, they wanted the races to fulfill a need of promoting young sires with precocious youngsters--both the BC and the soundness trouble stem from the same things but one doesn't cause the other, ergo a horse with the right background/training should be able to do both the Juvie and the Derby without injury whether or not he wins. I could be wrong but seems like the Distaff (with more mature horses) is actually the one that shows the most devastating injuries. I don't think you can blame knee chips and bucked shins on that one race. If it weren't the Juvenile it'd be some other 2yo race as it used to be before the Breeders' Cup. It's like arguing to change the Derby distance--if you don't enter horses that aren't bred for it, you won't have the same problems keeping them going.
Most of them are bred to be early developers to begin with, soundness be d@mned, and horses bred for precocity who're pushed more than usual are bound to have issues from that. Breeders also know that the odds of more than one successful season are so slim that they try to get the stallion buzz going asap in case the sky falls down. I don't think the Breeders' Cup led to this, I think the BC came out of what writing was on the wall so you could argue that the BC isn't resulting in problems, it exists because them. Horses can be ruined by bad management, fluke injuries, or just plain bad luck at any point in their career. A moderate amount of pushing as a youngster makes the bones stronger but it's all about matching the program and trainer to the horse. Too many of them overdo it but like I said, is it really the fault of the BC Juvenile?
I have to disagree with the idea that the Breeders Cup Juvenile is a direct causation of ills for horses. Those 2yo races existed because the owners wanted them to, they wanted the races to fulfill a need of promoting young sires with precocious youngsters--both the BC and the soundness trouble stem from the same things but one doesn't cause the other, ergo a horse with the right background/training should be able to do both the Juvie and the Derby without injury whether or not he wins. I could be wrong but seems like the Distaff (with more mature horses) is actually the one that shows the most devastating injuries. I don't think you can blame knee chips and bucked shins on that one race. If it weren't the Juvenile it'd be some other 2yo race as it used to be before the Breeders' Cup. It's like arguing to change the Derby distance--if you don't enter horses that aren't bred for it, you won't have the same problems keeping them going.
Most of them are bred to be early developers to begin with, soundness be d@mned, and horses bred for precocity who're pushed more than usual are bound to have issues from that. Breeders also know that the odds of more than one successful season are so slim that they try to get the stallion buzz going asap in case the sky falls down. I don't think the Breeders' Cup led to this, I think the BC came out of what writing was on the wall so you could argue that the BC isn't resulting in problems, it exists because them. Horses can be ruined by bad management, fluke injuries, or just plain bad luck at any point in their career. A moderate amount of pushing as a youngster makes the bones stronger but it's all about matching the program and trainer to the horse. Too many of them overdo it but like I said, is it really the fault of the BC Juvenile?
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana"