Conformation/stride of grass vs. dirt horses

[Swaps1955]

I don't know if this topic has been covered recently or not. If so, I missed it.

What do you look for (conformationally and stride-wise) when you are looking for a horse that might do better on grass or dirt?

[CA Michael]

1) Breeding
2) Hooves (bigger and flatter)
3) For lush turf, higher action is preferred; for putting green turf, daisycutter action is usually best.
4) Longer striding horses
5) Mudders usually make good turf horses.

There are many exceptions, particularly in action. Richard Mandella was once asked on TV what made a good turf horse, and he replied that he had seen them in all shapes, sizes, and action, but that breeding was the most reliable predictor. I am not a gambler, but when I go to the races, and see a first time turf starter with what I consider a grass pedigree (especially on the dam side), I always put a few bucks on it.

[Rokeby Forever]

Most of the turfers in the Mr. Miller barn were high leg action types when they galloped, and he always felt that horses with a high leg action had smoother strides on the turf. I think Barbaro was a good example of that. If you remember his turf efforts, he had a much more fluid stride on the grass, and on the dirt, he had more of a pronounced high leg action. Many times, you'll hear a horse being put on the grass "to save his career," and I think that's one of the reasons why.

I think it's an old wives' tale that good mudders make good turfers. Most "good mudders" are speed horses...the ones behind them might/might not handle the mud, but a lot of horses that close get the mud kicked in their faces and they back out of races. On the turf, they don't mind closing as much. Meanwhile, the speedy types that do well in the mud often get tired running on the turf, especially when the grass is tall and boggy.

[FOS]

hi Rok

Most of the turfers in the Mr. Miller barn were high leg action types when they galloped, and he always felt that horses with a high leg action had smoother strides on the turf.

MM's opinion was always worth hearing.

That said...and as you know, horses with high leg action have succeeded at the HIGHEST level on the dirt too. Examples...Champion 2-yo colt Chief's Crown, who won the then G1-Norfolk Stakes, the G1-BC Juvenile, and went on to win TOP races such as the G1-Travers and the G1-Marlboro Cup (ALL on the dirt) was quite a star and had VERY high knee action.

The GREAT racehorse Skip Away (Chp 3-yo, Chp Older Male-twice, Horse of the Year) also had VERY high action...VERY high.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[Rokeby Forever]

Hello FOS,

Chief's Crown might have loved the grass - Danzig blood.

Skip Away, as well. His offspring certainly like the new surfaces, and he's had some nice turf winners.

Happy 4th!

Best,
Rok

[Tucumcari]

BUt then Secretariat had low action aka Daisy clipper, and some say he might have been an even better horse on the turf.... what dif though... he was a freak on any surface
THEN there was Cigar... supposed to be a turf horse wasn't... and we all know what happened when the turf bred horse hit the main track

I prefer a low stride little wasted action on any horse dirt or turf. Easier on themselves, don't waste action. IMO If a horse is going to turf it will, regardless of conformation, breeding and movement. Some love it, some don't... some like it soft, some like it hard...

[dray33]

I am told that a good indicator: sickle hocked horses are "turfier".

[bdw0617]

as a handicapper, breeding is numero uno.

as far as strides, I don't like horses with short choppy strides on turf. I also don't like horses than how can I explain it... I'm going ot offer an example.. run like Rockport Harbor.. like they run HEAVY... you have to see it to know what I'm talking about.

[CA Michael]

bdw, I am not a handicapper, but I believe the PP's now include a turf breeding "number." Do you have any idea how the DRF calculates it?

[Rokeby Forever]

From reading this, I need to find a sickle hocked, flat footed, high stepping mud lover with grass breeding if I'm going to get one that likes the turf. Anyone have any for sale? LOL!

[FOS]

hi dray33...hi all

I am told that a good indicator: sickle hocked horses are "turfier".

I might suggest that it's not so much that sickle-hocks (in and of themselves) are a sure-fired indicater of a "turfier" (your word) horse per se...but, I expect you'll find that some sickle-hocked horses (including the great Nijinsky II), with talent of course, seem/seemed to handle undulating courses quite well.

Seems that some horses with sickle-hocks (including the aforementioned Nijinsky II) have benefited from such hind-leg alignment (if you will) to the extent that some seem to get their hind-legs under them better (maybe most notably over the undulating courses) than others.

I would expect that some of those very close to (and/or particularly knowledgeable of) racing throughout Europe might have plenty of dependable info (that they might be willing to share here) re the various thoroughbred racecourses in England, Ireland and the European continent...and might also chime in regarding their experiences/opinions re sickle-hocked thoroughbred runners.

For now...you might consider some of the difficulties that these two courses (for example) pose as a challenge...1/ Chantilly...where the last part of the course has long-been known for it's uphill grade (approaching the finish-line)...quite a test. 2/ Longchamps...where the course (which by the way is run clockwise) starts on the flat, then (while coming out of the wide and sweeping first turn) begins an uphill grade that's not only lengthy but also quite steep. Going into turn two begins the descent into a downhill grade which continues thru the sweeping turn and levels to the flat...which continues down the stretch and to the wire. Wow...what a test...Wow.

Best to you.

Respectfully.

[Rokeby Forever]

The reigning king of bad hocks, Point Given, has turned out to be a pretty good turf sire.

[springboro]

Apalachee was sickle hocked too.

[Denise]

Swaps, I'd say pedigree rules first. On the other hand, our broodmare, bred for the grass (Cozzene top, Bucksplasher bottom) HATED it. She slipped and slid around on it. Her two babies that have started (Unbridled line) LOVE it and couldn't be built or look more different going on it. The oldest is tall, long and lean with a LONG daisy-cutter stride. The second is a beast, with a big barrel, big rear and good sized feet. She's a higher stepper than bro. I can't wait to see what the next two, by a Danzig line sire, handle the weeds. Or the Tapeta.

[BenB]

Each track has his own phenophem.
The Hamburg racetrack (ger)is situated in a more land when that is wet, the horses go down to halfway their knees, and it actually needs horses with kneeaction.
The curragh racetrack(ire) is a flat large size track, laying on top of rockground, when this track is firm, you can hear the shoulders cracking so its requires the gras cutters, the very fluent movers with a very large stride.
In the states with the small narrow tracks a horse with a shorter stride might be better off, the tracks requires horses that are able to run fast through the benches and takes of for the homestraight,a hose with a large gallop takes more time for coming into his stride and mostly the party will be over.
When the Hamburg racetrack is scaled to firm, it is different than when the curragh ractrack is firm.
Reminds also that when a track is with an uphill finish, the ground will be better uphill than downhill.