Hail to Reason/Buckpasser cross

[LaTroienne]

This was mentioned in the Storm Cat thread and I thought it deserved its own thread.

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that Hail to Reason/Buckpasser doesn't work. Buckpasser over Hail to Reason (or vice versa) has worked a few times. Witness the hardy Silver Buck, a grade I winner by Buckpasser out of a Hail to Reason mare. I will admit, though, that Silver Buck's dam, Silver True, was a rather tough mare, as she ran 38 times. Another of her foals ran 79 times. One of Hail to Reason's sons, Stop the Music, was a good stakes winner and sire, but was not out of a Buckpasser mare (he was out of a mare by Buckpasser's sire, Tom Fool).

Interestingly enough, though, more distant descendants of both horses seem to cross well.

http://www.stallions.com.au/newsv2/sp_Star_Cross.asp

Southern Halo has done very well with mares by Logical, a son of Buckpasser.

The sire of more than 550 winners and more than 130 stakes winners - one of the few sires to top 100SW - Southern Halo has sired quite a few of his 47 Gr.1 winners out of mares by Logical (a son of Buckpasser), who is the sire of Other Star, dam of Star Cross.
Some of the Gr.1 winners bred on this cross are Gouache, Venusberg, Hangar (Argentine Derby), Matthis and his Tasmanian-based brother My Lad (ARG), Rimel, La Costa Azul, La Galerie (Champion 2YO) and Wally (Champion Sprinter).

Halo, a son of Hail to Reason, crossed with Buckpasser's stellar daughter Sex Appeal to produce the mare Solar. Solar was a multiple group III winner and the ancestress of graded stakes winner Strong Hope and group I winner Bahamian Pirate.

Roberto also had a group-placed horse out of a Buckpasser mare in Al Mufti, who went on to be a leading South American sire.

[Rokeby Forever]

La Troienne - you started this thread? *kisses*!!!!!!!

I could write 20 pages on this, but to keep Maven happy, I'll keep this short. When horses have this cross in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th generations, you come up with GOLD!!!!!

Just for starters, erase AP Indy and More Than Ready from breeding...and it gets much bleaker if I continue.

[going4stamina]

Been reading for a while, but haven't ever posted...
How would you feel about Silver Charm's chances with Sunday Silence daughters?
Thanks

[Maven]

Actually, I wish you would expand, Rokeby. It would be nice to hear you talk about something with passion OTHER than hating on Storm Cat or Unbridled's Song. Think you could do it without bringing up Storm Cat?

[Rokeby Forever]

No.

[LaTroienne]

La Troienne - you started this thread? *kisses*!!!!!!!

I could write 20 pages on this, but to keep Maven happy, I'll keep this short. When horses have this cross in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th generations, you come up with GOLD!!!!!

Just for starters, erase AP Indy and More Than Ready from breeding...and it gets much bleaker if I continue.

No problem: I think you made a really valid point about the cross, and I wanted to hear others' opinions on it. Also, feel free to write 20 pages on it: there's no limit, is there? I really enjoy hearing everyone's discussions on crosses that work and don't work.

I don't think it matters whether you bring up Storm Cat or not: hey, he's a major sire today.

[Maven]

No.

Figures. Invitation still stands... would love to hear your thoughts on the cross since you pimp it every day.

[LaTroienne]

Been reading for a while, but haven't ever posted...
How would you feel about Silver Charm's chances with Sunday Silence daughters?
Thanks

I think that foal would result in a distance-oriented runner, as both stallions were classic winners. I do think, though, that that cross would bring in an interesting use of Domino in the sense of more obscure crosses. For example, Silver Charm's second dam is by Wise Margin, a paternal grandson of Brokers Tip (son of Black Toney), who we rarely see in pedigrees. SC's fourth dam was sired by the little-known Zacaweista, a son of High Time out of Lucrative, a granddaughter of Fairy Gold.

Similarly, Sunday Silence has numerous lesser-known uses of Domino (interestingly, Sunday Silence's broodmare sire is by Promised Land, whose second dam was by Toro, one of the last conduits of the Ben Brush line). S's broodmare sire, Understanding, had Stymie, a rarely-seen representative of the Domino line in pedigrees, as his damsire.

[Rokeby Forever]

Figures. Invitation still stands... would love to hear your thoughts on the cross since you pimp it every day.

I'll give you a quick thought that'll curl your toes, Maven (other than me wearing a pair of Joe Boxers and nothing else)...

You're a Lemon Drop Kid supporter - he was a heck of a racehorse and his broodies figure to make nice prospects. What did Charming Lassie have floating around in her veins?

[Maven]

You're under the impression I dont like the cross and the names associated with it. There is nothing farther from the truth.

With that said, I would love to hear what you have to say about it. It's not me baiting you... It would just be SO refreshing to hear you talk passionately about something that isn't tearing down another sire line.

You obviously have affection for the cross, and it's always nice to understand someone's thought process. That's all.

And for the record, im a big supporter of Lemon Drop Kid... I have Lemonlime but I also have a 2yo named Design. I have high hopes for this one. She probably wont be put into training until late fall if not the spring of next year. She's certainly a two-turn turf filly.

[Rokeby Forever]

I know you like the cross, Maven...how could anyone not?

Let's take a look at Seattle Slew. His ONLY successful line has been AP Indy. AP Indy carries Buckpasser on the bottom. Look at all of Seattle Slew's best sons and tell me how many carry/carried Buckpasser. And without Buckpasser, how did they pan out as stallions?

Albert The Great has been a less than stellar stallion - but when mated to Nightstorm, Nobiz Like Shobiz popped up. Albert The Great carries Buckpasser through the Passing Look broodie family...and Nightstorm is out of Halo's Daughter....which leads to none other than Hail To Reason. I'd venture to say that Nobiz might have a nice stallion career ahead.

I saw that Barclay Tagg worked Nobiz :58 2/5 on the Saratoga turf yesterday. Maybe his unfulfilled dirt promise will blossom on the weeds.

My overall thoughts about Hail To Reason/Buckpasser? If more breeders stuck to it, we wouldn't have war, famine, climate change, disease, and overcrowded prisons - what a wonderful world it would be!

Alas...there are people that follow the Storm Cat/Unbridled cross. When it manages to work :59 4/5 in an unraced three year old, people whoop it up. Go figure, huh?

[LaTroienne]

An interesting article:

Seattle Slew's dam, My Charmer was inbred to *La Troienne's daughter Baby League 4 x 4 through the full sisters Striking and Busher (by War Admiral). Linebreeding to *La Troienne's family (1-x) proved quite successful with Seattle Slew, especially through Buckpasser. With daughters of Buckpasser, Seattle Slew sired stakes winners Night Spirit, Serious Spender, Hickman Creek, Fast Play, and Slew o'Gold, an earner of $3.5 million, and one of the better siring sons of Seattle Slew. Buckpasser also appears in the pedigree of Seattle Slew's Champion Three Year Old filly Surfside through her broodmare sire Seeking The Gold (dam by Buckpasser), and in the pedigree of Horse of the Year A P Indy as his second broodmare sire. A son of Seattle Slew from a Buckpasser mare, Slewacide, is the broodmare sire of Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide. Other notable stakes winners sired by Seattle Slew descending from *La Troienne tail-female include Glowing Honor, Scorpion, Adored, Yonder, Anguilla, and Expensive Slew. Seattle Slew's son, A P Indy sired Horse of the Year Mineshaft who traced tail-female to Striking. Champion Two Year Old, Vindication descended from *La Troienne's three parts sister Adargatis, also the ancestress of Kentucky Derby winner Spend A Buck by Buckpasser's son Buckaroo.

http://www.louisarthur.com/ped_analysis.htm

Some of them don't pan out even with Buckpasser in their blood. Slewacide was a good sire, but his line didn't carry on.

Bred on the same cross as Slew o' Gold (out of Evasive, by Buckpasser), Slewacide raced only once, finishing third, but he has sired 44 stakes winners (7%), including Grade 1 winners Clever Trevor and Slew of Damascus. Unfortunately, all four of Slewacide's graded stakes-winning sons are geldings, putting an immediate halt to what could have been a successful branch of the Seattle Slew male line.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... eattleslew

Good sire sons of Slew w/o Buckpasser (they haven't necessarily carried on the male line, but have been reasonably good sires):

Slewdledo: excellent regional sire in Washington
Slew Prince and Slewbop: leading Venezuelan sires
Capote
Slew City Slew
General Meeting

[Maven]

While I do agree with a lot of what you said, Rok, I think you need to give more credit to the female line of A.P. Indy and it's ability to throw good stallions, with the Slew-Hail to Reason influence or not.

And for the record, the only stallion "line" I follow directly is that of Grey Sovereign. Its to me, what the "Phipps" are to you.

[Rokeby Forever]

About the fine broodmare Alluvial, I might argue that Slew O'Gold was Seattle Slew's best racing son, and he did have some success at stud, but I'll agree, he was a disappointment at stud. However, she also produced Coastal, whom carried no Hail To Reason, and he was a complete dud as a stallion.

Was there a bigger Seattle Slew dud than Houston? Not a drop of Buckpasser, methinks.

[Maven]

About the fine broodmare Alluvial, I might argue that Slew O'Gold was Seattle Slew's best racing son, and he did have some success at stud, but I'll agree, he was a disappointment at stud. However, she also produced Coastal, whom carried no Hail To Reason, and he was a complete dud as a stallion.

Was there a bigger Seattle Slew dud than Houston? Not a drop of Buckpasser, methinks.

Since you'll love it, look at Aptitude. Certainly a useful stallion, 2nd dam Alluvial, multiple strands of Buckpasser.