One more to add to Dutrow's list

[BostonGal]

Had a horse run on Friday at Belmont rested 2 days and ran at Monmouth today and it broke down Love to hear him explain his logic behind this one!

[Tucumcari]

He rarely has one snap it.

[Archer]

Had a horse run on Friday at Belmont rested 2 days and ran at Monmouth today and it broke down Love to hear him explain his logic behind this one!

I think the "logic" behind it would be that he has had a great deal of success with this move over the years. Some horses can do this. Not all, certainly. But definitely some.

You say "broke down" but the chart says "pulled up in distress." There is a difference.

[Tiz]

Within the last couple of months, I watched one of Dutrow's horses win a race, and if I remember right it had run second the day before.

Seems like piling on Rick Dutrow is this summer's message board sport. I wonder if he would trade the Derby for his life back? Nah, but I'll bet it's crossed his mind.

[Stevie Belmont]

Dutrow has wheeled back many horses on two days rest....

In fact one year he ran Golden Man back to back days...Stakes at Delaware and then the Haskell.

[BostonGal]

Had a horse run on Friday at Belmont rested 2 days and ran at Monmouth today and it broke down Love to hear him explain his logic behind this one!

I think the "logic" behind it would be that he has had a great deal of success with this move over the years. Some horses can do this. Not all, certainly. But definitely some.

You say "broke down" but the chart says "pulled up in distress." There is a difference.

Well I guess he pulled up in distress and vanned off cause heard he fractured his hind leg... Maybe its the surface, another one was vanned of in the first race.
Sure horses can run back on a short rest and win but how long do they stay in the game for? it catches up to them eventually.

[Sysonby]

But aren't you basing your assertion on what may be only the second horse in the afternoon which broke down for Dutrow in the last 7 years? If that's true, think about that for a minute. Dutrow has well over 500 starts a year and he has been leading trainer in NY three times in that period. Who else has that low a percentage of breakdowns versus starts?

Since I don't follow East Coast racing closely, I never knew about the wheel back move either until I saw him do it on a horse that happened to be on my Stable Mail. I don't still have the result but the horse's name is Akin. From memory, Dutrow ran him this spring and he finished 4th or something, dropped him like a stone into Maiden $16K 2-3 days later and he won by open lengths. I believe Dutrow still has him and I got a work on him the other day. He has also run a few times since.

Hey the guy isn't likable but if you are going to pile on for this, what do you do to Matz after Barbaro and Chelokee?

[Sock Monkey]

I don't still have the result but the horse's name is Akin. From memory, Dutrow ran him this spring and he finished 4th or something, dropped him like a stone into Maiden $16K 2-3 days later and he won by open lengths. I believe Dutrow still has him and I got a work on him the other day. He has also run a few times since.

This is a good example of how the wheelback can work well. Akin - total record (13) 2 - 1 - 2 $34,454 - has been with Dutrow since May '07. On Jan 16 he ran him for M40k at GP and he ran 5th. Dutrown wheeled him back on the 20th and dropped him in for 16k and won. (Also a good example of how to drop and steal a pot.) They gave him some time afer that race and ran him back in Mar and Apr getting a 3rd and a 6th. In May, Dutrow did the wheelback again, running 2nd for 20k at MTH on the 24th and then on the 29th at BEL winning for 15k.

It's obvious Dutrow knows what works for individual horses. He's pretty effective and clearly it's working.

[Tairaterces]

Had a horse run on Friday at Belmont rested 2 days and ran at Monmouth today and it broke down Love to hear him explain his logic behind this one!

I think the "logic" behind it would be that he has had a great deal of success with this move over the years. Some horses can do this. Not all, certainly. But definitely some.

You say "broke down" but the chart says "pulled up in distress." There is a difference.

Well I guess he pulled up in distress and vanned off cause heard he fractured his hind leg... Maybe its the surface, another one was vanned of in the first race.
Sure horses can run back on a short rest and win but how long do they stay in the game for? it catches up to them eventually.

Unrequited fractured his pelvis.
http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/dutro ... uthanized/

Rest in peace Unrequited . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[Roger]

Do any of you have any science to back up your ideas that running a horse after one days rest is a bad thing? It would not be good for two year olds or most 3 year olds early in the year, because it does take them time to recoup. In the past, to be declared a winner, a horse had to win 2 of three posible heats on the same day usually at a mile or more.
I find it strange that no one mentioned that Big Brown was tested for over 500 drugs after the Belmont and was clean.
What would the breed look like if Bute had never been invented. It is possible that Bold Ruler would have had very little influence. I can't back that up because I can't remember where I read it, but back in his days bute was new and it was not tested and it is rumored that his trainer put him on it.
If you have an unsupported opinion, thats great, but I wish you would be honest and say, this is just my opinion for those of use who believe everything we want to believe that is in writting.

[zinn21]

Roger stated,

Do any of you have any science to back up your ideas that running a horse after one days rest is a bad thing? It would not be good for two year olds or most 3 year olds early in the year, because it does take them time to recoup.

Is your two year old/three year old statement an opinion or science?

IMO, running a horse back in one or two days will in general produce an inferior race performance over a horse allowed to recover normally from a previous start. Some horses recover quicker than others. Some need more time based on their physical and mental makeup. None recover in a day, IMO, and none recovered in a day one hundred years ago but like the evolution of the thoroughbred so has the training regimen for the racehorse.

Not more than twenty five years ago the majority of trainers blew out their horse the morning of, the day before or two days before a race. That practice is rarely seen anymore.

[Roger]

Good post Zinn. One of the studies that Bill posted in Poland I think, stated that 2 year olds that raced with their races spaced out over time lasted longer than all other horses and that they needed more time between their races to recoup. I applied my experience over the last 30 years to that and concluded that young 3 yr olds were a lot like two year olds and from that experience they need more time between races.
Now to training practices. I believe that there are lines that are sound and that a major cause of breakdowns is in how we handle horses today. We have seemed to have adopted the QH training practices of training for speed and a short career. That would be a good thread in itself. There are many reasons that I would not like to run back in two days, but main reason is glycogen depleation. Your horse would get tire quicker and that would make him more prone to injury. That is also the reason people stopped their 3/8's the day before, but there is a place for that 3/8's in high strung horses.

[hdembski]

[quote="Roger"]Do any of you have any science to back up your ideas that running a horse after one days rest is a bad thing?

Do you have any evidence that it's a "good" thing or a healthy thing to do for a horse? But hey whatever pays the bills, who cares about a silly horse!

[doublete]

Well on this subject I have an opinion. I get comments about it all the time, because I do it.

There is no arguing that I am young, and relatively inexperienced in this racing game. I have found every horse is different. Also, I only have cheap bottom horses, and generally the cheap ones are sound because they don't run hard enough to hurt themselves (personal experience at least).

And many trainers use very strong medications that tire the horse out more so than others. These horses absolutely cannot run back quickly. Others can, because they are in good condition, given proper electrolyte boosts, and taken care of properly it does no harm.

I've run several horses right back, with good results. One mare that I had for Norcrest I ran 6 f. and 4 days later ran her back 1 mile when she won by 7 lengths and going away. She had back class and was a very nice mare.
I have two horses that I just ran a week apart from start to start and many people questioned it. Both ran good, and both came out of the second race like raving lunatics- I'll bet my life they will win the next start.
It all comes down to how we treat the horses both in their every day training and on race day. If we train them into the ground, they won't be able to recover as quickly from a race. If they aren't nutritionally sound, they can't recover as quickly beause their body doesn't have it. You can bet that the trainers that do successfully run horses back quickly have healthy animals and they are probably happier horses. There is a fine line between a fit, happy, sound, and well conditioned horse and a tired, unfit/overfit, sore, poorly kept horse. Until you know exactly how the animals are cared for, you really can't stand on the sidelines and comment on it. There is way too much that goes into the decision.