copule of questions about the 3YO's in socal

[bdw0617]

1. why isn't anyone talking about Grazen? He just won the affirmed in 1:41 and change and I have not seen one mention of him anywhere.

2. How likely do you think it is baffert actually puts POtN on the turf this summer... you know... where he belongs?

After the derby, the more you see empire makers, the more laughable you see the notion was that POTN was going to be just as good if not better dirt horse becuase "empire maker won the belmont". I think I've seen 1 empire maker run on the dirt since may and that was a Juddmonte maiden special weight horse on belmont undercard.. and he got demolished. but they make very good turf horses.

[Indychase]

1. why isn't anyone talking about Grazen? He just won the affirmed in 1:41 and change and I have not seen one mention of him anywhere.

2. How likely do you think it is baffert actually puts POtN on the turf this summer... you know... where he belongs?

After the derby, the more you see empire makers, the more laughable you see the notion was that POTN was going to be just as good if not better dirt horse becuase "empire maker won the belmont". I think I've seen 1 empire maker run on the dirt since may and that was a Juddmonte maiden special weight horse on belmont undercard.. and he got demolished. but they make very good turf horses.

Icon Project just won the New York Stakes on the dirt by 12 or 13.

[bdw0617]

ok so i missed one, but the odds are against any empire maker loving the dirt so far.

[ASB]

Pioneer ofthe Nile was 2nd in the Derby on dirt.

Acoma has won graded events on both surfaces.

Country Star was a synthetics specialist.

Icon Project is a stakes winner on dirt.

Mushka's only graded win was on dirt.

Imperial Council is graded placed on dirt.

Turn Away's best races have come on dirt.

Roman Emperor's stakes win is on the dirt.

I guess I'm not seeing a huge turf bias in his best runners. They do seem to relish synthetics as a group, but that doesn't always translate into turf. I personally think it has more to do with their action. Seems a lot of runners with awkward actions on the front end, especially those that paddle, move better over the synthetics, and Empire Maker is throwing that.

It's also worth realizing that Juddmonte sent the entire farm to him in his first few years, and their broodmare population is extremely turf heavy. So the fact his best have not been on turf, at least yet, doesn't seem to support your observation.

[bdw0617]

those are big horses. I see race, after race, after race, after race, after race evreyday. churchill. belmont. santa anita. gulfstream. the vast, vast majority of the horses that I see are on turf.

I have nothign against empire maker. in fact he was my derby horse. I love him, I love Frankel, I love juddmonte. it's nothing personal. But the vast majority of his kids like turf.

looking at his pedigree and his siblings, is that even that hard of a conclusion to come to? his half brother won the arlington million for crying out loud and he was by the dirtest sire ever. his own dam took very much to the turf, as did his sister.

Also, I don' teven see why his kids liking the turf is taken as somewhat of a derogatory statement. it just is. it's not like he's a failure becasue his kids don't like dirt.

[Tucumcari]

Grazen is a good colt. I look so forward to watching him more. Got on him as a 2 year old. Kind of a jerk, but talented

[bdw0617]

jerk lol.

how's point encounter doing? he was the chic 3YO of hte week for a while there.

[Tucumcari]

No idea how Point Encounter is. Carla is great at brining horses back off of layoff's. Nothing but the utmost confidence

[ASB]

Who said it was a negative that they allegedly like turf? It's just that his best runners have yet to show any turf appreciation more so than any other top stallion.

Your exact quote was

I think I've seen 1 empire maker run on the dirt since may and that was a Juddmonte maiden special weight horse on belmont undercard.. and he got demolished. but they make very good turf horses.

and

ok so i missed one, but the odds are against any empire maker loving the dirt so far.

If you watch racing every day and follow the Empire Makers in particular, than you know these generalizations aren't true when it comes to his quality runners. Acoma aside, who are the "very good turf runners" and how do they compare to the horses listed earlier who are excelling on other surfaces?

As far as the maiden and later developing foals, Empire Makers' tend to have issues upfront and it's not a stretch to think many of them are put on turf in hopes of stringing together some races.

And as I pointed out prior, the Juddmonte broodmare band is extremely turf heavy, so it stands to reason he's going to get some turf runners. But with all that together, he's yet to show that he's a turf stallion or that his offspring are even competitive at the graded level on turf, outside of Acoma.

He certainly has the genes to establish himself well on the turf, but until he gets graded horses who consistently prefer the turf to any synthetic or dirt track, that's a stretch.

Now it could be the result of two mares from outstanding families being dominant, but Lord At War mares are having some very good success with Empire Maker, the only two horses of racing age from the cross being Pioneer ofthe Nile and Icon Project. Again, both are from two of the best families in the world, so it could be the mare being dominant genetically, but it stands to reason this might be a very effective cross.

It wouldn't surprise me considering the amount of bone and versatility Lord At War passed on and how a stallion like Empire Maker would appreciate that because of his own faults.

If anyone has a Lord At War mare of quality, I'd watch closely and present Juddmonte with a foal share/co-breeder offer.