Ok wise people who continue to me teach me on a daily basis... Vindication, Limited racing career, highly touted by Baffert, Very solid pedigree, Scipion early sucess(can't hurt), what are this boards thoughts with respect to Vindications future on the breed. Will he see the types of mares necessary to be succeed? Does he need a certain mare to produce quality? What types of pedigrees will have the most success? Would you send a mare to him? Is 60k the right fee for a unproven stallion?
Respectfully
FM
Vindication
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Lots of good questions, freddymo, and I'm probably not the "wisest" person who will answer, but since I have a mare booked to Vindication for this year, I'll take a stab at some of them.
I love Vindication's pedigree and his looks. He had lots of precocious speed and even though he never raced again after his two year old campaign, I think that was more a matter of wanting to preserve his "indefeated" status than of unsoundness. The mare I have going to him is by Storm Bird and out of a Clever Trick mare. She's a good sized, solid, mare with very good bone, which is what I think will work well with him.
As for the 60K stud fee, it's what the market will bear. His book was way over-subscribed last year and this year both, so Hill 'n' Dale got to pick and choose which mares they wanted. Also, mares in foal to him averaged something like 580K at the Keeneland Nov. sale.
I think he's going to be a huge commercial hit. As for his future impact on the breed, I'm hoping for the best. But then, that's what breeders always do.
I love Vindication's pedigree and his looks. He had lots of precocious speed and even though he never raced again after his two year old campaign, I think that was more a matter of wanting to preserve his "indefeated" status than of unsoundness. The mare I have going to him is by Storm Bird and out of a Clever Trick mare. She's a good sized, solid, mare with very good bone, which is what I think will work well with him.
As for the 60K stud fee, it's what the market will bear. His book was way over-subscribed last year and this year both, so Hill 'n' Dale got to pick and choose which mares they wanted. Also, mares in foal to him averaged something like 580K at the Keeneland Nov. sale.
I think he's going to be a huge commercial hit. As for his future impact on the breed, I'm hoping for the best. But then, that's what breeders always do.
hi freddymo ... hi LSB
I agree with LSB...Vindication is and will be a HUGE commercial success...
...at least for a while...unless what the foals look like (then his yearlings...then his 2-year-olds) raise some serious doubts.
What his impact on the breed will be is strictly conjecture right now...but it seems clear that he does bring a lot to the table...and will be poised to be important...if he's got-it in him.
Being out of a Strawberry Road mare may not automatically generate a glowing perception...but I submit it's a very nice injection...and (for what it's worth) I am one who believes that Strawberry Road was not only a sensational runner but a TOP class...powerhouse...imposing individual. He was very special.
You ask many good questions...let's revist.
Best to you.
Respectfully
I agree with LSB...Vindication is and will be a HUGE commercial success...
...at least for a while...unless what the foals look like (then his yearlings...then his 2-year-olds) raise some serious doubts.
What his impact on the breed will be is strictly conjecture right now...but it seems clear that he does bring a lot to the table...and will be poised to be important...if he's got-it in him.
Being out of a Strawberry Road mare may not automatically generate a glowing perception...but I submit it's a very nice injection...and (for what it's worth) I am one who believes that Strawberry Road was not only a sensational runner but a TOP class...powerhouse...imposing individual. He was very special.
You ask many good questions...let's revist.
Best to you.
Respectfully
LSB are you breeding to race or sell the foal? Racing seems to be a very risky proposition with such a wild card Stallion. Was it difficult to get a season with Vindication or is your mare such a quality candiate? If you where to sell as a yearling what would your price target be on a well put together colt/filly. I am assuming you would need at least a six figure sale for you to be profitable? Do you really think Vindications yearlings will command 100 to 200k averages?
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George William Smith
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Vindication
When I put Vindication together on paper for Virginia Kraft Payson the following formed a basis for my thought processes.
1. The mare had been bred to St. Jovite, the home stallion for the first two matins to help St. Jovite at stud since the mare was nicely bred and a classy runner.
2. St. Jovite at the time still had potential to make a good stallion, but I thought the mare deserved to be bred off the farm and not to put all the eggs in the same basket.
3. The first foal [Holy Reason] had lots of quality but was not of racing age so this was another strong plus for the mare in that she could throw nice foals.
4. Mrs. Payson had just begun to change her operation for pure breeding to race to commercial if need be [a year later she would go purely commercial with good solid stallions].
5. For the first time in many years Mrs. Payson gave the green light that high stud fee stallions may be used. This decision allowed my fantasies to be unleashed.
6. I came up with Seattle Slew because:
a. He was already a top sire and broodmare sire and worth every nickel of his stud fee if your brought him a mare that was solidly built.
b. He was not going to be around much longer so the prospect of waiting to see if the mare had the ability to throw stakewinners and then breed to him was not an option. He would have to be the one to throw the SW's if St. Jovite could not do the job.
c. We would either get a great foal or a foal so poorly formed that it would be obvious the mating didn't work since the foal would carry Hail To Reason through two daughters which were not much as runners, but each of which had thrown a classy runner: 4,3. Fortunately for me, I knew Mrs. Payson would be agreeable to inbreeding as we had produced a couple of other top-class runners through inbreeding.[Milesius 3,3 to Prince John: note also a top sire and broodmare sire, a sign of one of my inbreedings].
7. I was not high on Strawberry Road as a cinch to make a good broodmare sire so we needed the stallion to be not only well-established but a good sire and also strongly predisposed to become or was a strong broodmare sire. It turns out I was wrong about his ability as a broodmare sire, but would make the same decision again given what was known at the time.
8. The foal from Seattle Slew if he proved to be a top runner would also have a great chance to make a good sire if good booking procedures were followed, since inbreeding to stallions that I consider Hardy [stamina-oriented] in aptitude need to have been exceptional runners to make excellent sires.
Please note that while many were impressed by Vindication, I remain one of those that would liked to have seen more in very fast times to assure his success. But his times were only mediocre. Some horses only run as fast as they have to so you don't get fast times from them unless they need to in order to win. Cigar is a good example of running just fast enough to win.
Needless to say, A.P. Indy was a top option for Strawberry Reason as he was already a good sire and by the sire of Vindication. So it is not particularly surprising that Scipion's two best races are in mediocre time. Whether Scipion runs only as fast as he has to in the future is in the hands of the Gods. He may partly answer my question as to how really good Vindication was.
Will Vindication make it as a sire? Most fail, so I don't want to get my hopes too high. But I must agree that the Seattle Slew line reinforced with another cross of Hail To Reason through a good mare that has now thrown three very nice foals indeed, has every chance to become a good stallion.
Go Vindication Go
1. The mare had been bred to St. Jovite, the home stallion for the first two matins to help St. Jovite at stud since the mare was nicely bred and a classy runner.
2. St. Jovite at the time still had potential to make a good stallion, but I thought the mare deserved to be bred off the farm and not to put all the eggs in the same basket.
3. The first foal [Holy Reason] had lots of quality but was not of racing age so this was another strong plus for the mare in that she could throw nice foals.
4. Mrs. Payson had just begun to change her operation for pure breeding to race to commercial if need be [a year later she would go purely commercial with good solid stallions].
5. For the first time in many years Mrs. Payson gave the green light that high stud fee stallions may be used. This decision allowed my fantasies to be unleashed.
6. I came up with Seattle Slew because:
a. He was already a top sire and broodmare sire and worth every nickel of his stud fee if your brought him a mare that was solidly built.
b. He was not going to be around much longer so the prospect of waiting to see if the mare had the ability to throw stakewinners and then breed to him was not an option. He would have to be the one to throw the SW's if St. Jovite could not do the job.
c. We would either get a great foal or a foal so poorly formed that it would be obvious the mating didn't work since the foal would carry Hail To Reason through two daughters which were not much as runners, but each of which had thrown a classy runner: 4,3. Fortunately for me, I knew Mrs. Payson would be agreeable to inbreeding as we had produced a couple of other top-class runners through inbreeding.[Milesius 3,3 to Prince John: note also a top sire and broodmare sire, a sign of one of my inbreedings].
7. I was not high on Strawberry Road as a cinch to make a good broodmare sire so we needed the stallion to be not only well-established but a good sire and also strongly predisposed to become or was a strong broodmare sire. It turns out I was wrong about his ability as a broodmare sire, but would make the same decision again given what was known at the time.
8. The foal from Seattle Slew if he proved to be a top runner would also have a great chance to make a good sire if good booking procedures were followed, since inbreeding to stallions that I consider Hardy [stamina-oriented] in aptitude need to have been exceptional runners to make excellent sires.
Please note that while many were impressed by Vindication, I remain one of those that would liked to have seen more in very fast times to assure his success. But his times were only mediocre. Some horses only run as fast as they have to so you don't get fast times from them unless they need to in order to win. Cigar is a good example of running just fast enough to win.
Needless to say, A.P. Indy was a top option for Strawberry Reason as he was already a good sire and by the sire of Vindication. So it is not particularly surprising that Scipion's two best races are in mediocre time. Whether Scipion runs only as fast as he has to in the future is in the hands of the Gods. He may partly answer my question as to how really good Vindication was.
Will Vindication make it as a sire? Most fail, so I don't want to get my hopes too high. But I must agree that the Seattle Slew line reinforced with another cross of Hail To Reason through a good mare that has now thrown three very nice foals indeed, has every chance to become a good stallion.
Go Vindication Go
GSV well put as always! I like "Vindy" a bunch also. Which mares do you fancy for him? Is there a predisposition to any nicks in particular that you suggest? My buddy and I are starting slow with a few 20 to 50k race mares which we will purchase(claim) for the sake of breeding and having some fun. We are not poor ,but we will not be doing this without some budgeting in mind. We expect to make some mistakes ,but there is logic to our dreams. Lets just say we want to have educated risky fun. I am on this board taking a lot more then giving (knowledge) ,but I guess thats why the board is here. We expect to be breeding next season. We did Keeneland (sept04) and Ft Spa 04 just for the experience. Our budget is reasonable and we do not expect this to be anything more then a hobby with a purpose. Your thoughts and knowledge is very much appreciated, although 1/2 of it is way over my head.
respectfully
FM
respectfully
FM
freddymo, I don't consider Vindication to be a "wild card" stallion--though I confess I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that.
Assuming we get a nice foal, he or she will probably be sold as a yearling, though of course many things can change between now and then (we're talking about a foal that will potentially be born in 2006.) It wasn't difficult, exactly, to get a season to Vindication but we did have to apply early (he filled up quickly) and be accepted, and yes, the mare we submitted is a quality candidate--though considering his stud fee, I would think there were few non-quality mares submitted.
Assuming we get a nice foal, he or she will probably be sold as a yearling, though of course many things can change between now and then (we're talking about a foal that will potentially be born in 2006.) It wasn't difficult, exactly, to get a season to Vindication but we did have to apply early (he filled up quickly) and be accepted, and yes, the mare we submitted is a quality candidate--though considering his stud fee, I would think there were few non-quality mares submitted.
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George William Smith
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Vindication
Freddymo:
Wow, you write of a real solid plan. Most go in with their heads in the clouds and the hands of others in their pockets. You are already far ahead in the game that can be so much fun. Good Luck
I really haven't looked at depth, though that sounds strange, with what goes well with Vindication until I see what type he throws racing wise. I only rarely recommend untested stallions to my clients unless the mare has already shown that they are highly successful versatile producers and you don't get to analyze many of those. Vindication based on his pedigree will go one of two ways in all probability with that stamina pedigree. He will either be outstanding like his dad [if he could have ran a lot faster if he was not retired] or will be regarded as a failure if just average. In either case he has all the traits of an excellent broodmare sire, so I sure wouldn't be surprised to find that his daughters become very profitable.
Go Freddymo Go
Wow, you write of a real solid plan. Most go in with their heads in the clouds and the hands of others in their pockets. You are already far ahead in the game that can be so much fun. Good Luck
I really haven't looked at depth, though that sounds strange, with what goes well with Vindication until I see what type he throws racing wise. I only rarely recommend untested stallions to my clients unless the mare has already shown that they are highly successful versatile producers and you don't get to analyze many of those. Vindication based on his pedigree will go one of two ways in all probability with that stamina pedigree. He will either be outstanding like his dad [if he could have ran a lot faster if he was not retired] or will be regarded as a failure if just average. In either case he has all the traits of an excellent broodmare sire, so I sure wouldn't be surprised to find that his daughters become very profitable.
Go Freddymo Go
I must confess that I am not a believer in Vindication. I think that his first 2 or 3 crops will make money at the sales, but they will not perform well at the racetrack. By perform well, I mean be Grade 1 winners or champions or serious handicap horses.
As far as I can tell, Vindication did not beat any horses that became serious runners at 3 and 4. And Seattle Slew's only outstanding son at stud is AP Indy with Capote having been highly respected.
I hope that I am wrong.
As far as I can tell, Vindication did not beat any horses that became serious runners at 3 and 4. And Seattle Slew's only outstanding son at stud is AP Indy with Capote having been highly respected.
I hope that I am wrong.
GSV thx again.. We will be looking to buy mares that have Seeking the Gold in them. Probably not directly as a filly or mare with solid confirmation and race record will not be found in claiming races or in our budget. So we are looking at sons of Seeking instead. I am a believer that Seeking the Gold influence on the dam side of mares is very significant(not that my opinion means anything). We also would like to find a Easy Goer or Will Way mare to breed as well. Most likely it will be a Wills Way. I will let you know when we buy one as it will be a pleasure to contract your services.
Thx
FM
Thx
FM
Dont give up on the Easy Goer mares a few have gone through the Keeneland sale for a pittance. If you had been there in Nov. you could have got Loping Along out of the great mare Blitey for only around 37k, and she was infoal to Holy Bull. A few others have gone for less than that, so keep an eye out because they are out there.
Nu
Nessa we saw her and she is available at a farm in NY for 55k negotiable? She has not thrown anything to speak of and we can't understand why Phipps sold her. We also weren't crazy about Holy Bull? We did not think we would be able to get our money out of the foal. We also weren't going to afford the stallions that she has already tried Seeking,Silver etc. So we passed we got out at 20k which was are max. I would love to try her Seeking daughters ,but I bet they are still with the Phipp's broodmare band? Thx for the info...
freddymo, I imagine Loping Along was sold for exactly the reason you mentioned--despite numerous tries with good stallions, she hasn't produced anything of note. There are only so many chances you can give a mare before moving on. Under the circumstances, 37K was a decent amount of money to get for her.
One of her daughters was for sale somewhere recently (sorry I don't have the books right in front of me). I seem to remember she was by Silver Deputy?
One of her daughters was for sale somewhere recently (sorry I don't have the books right in front of me). I seem to remember she was by Silver Deputy?
Thx LSB would perfer the Seeking fillies because we want to try a son of Storm Cat (which one TBD). It's odd for Phipps to sell broodies especially from Blitey who was so important to continueing there success. Do you remember what the Silver dep filly brought? I am also looking at Mutakdim mares to bred to a Storm Cat sons, if you see anything give a shout thx... I actually saw a nice Phipps mare that I was surpised to see Jeffeff or Jeff em? owned. The horse won 1st out in a MSW at Aqu last week.
Easy something was her name?
FM
Easy something was her name?
FM