Which would you choose? 2yos in training.

[Toccet02]

Which has more roi potential: a small wiry Flatter colt who will race at Santa Anita for connections that will probably push him too hard towards stakes; cost 16k for a 5% share, or an Unbridled Energy huge colt who will race at golden Gate Fields for people I never heard of, cost 6k for 5% share.
I like them both visually. The UE colt has an arched neck like a Spanish horse. Very Stallion-like. The flatter looks like a 2yo. we have such purse differences here . . . intriguing problem.

[Laurierace]

Both sound absolutely insanely overpriced to me, I would chose neither.

[LB]

I wouldn't invest 6K or 16K based on the amount of information given. One or both may be worth the amount they're asking but it's impossible to tell without knowing more.

[TJ]

Which has more roi potential: a small wiry Flatter colt who will race at Santa Anita for connections that will probably push him too hard towards stakes; cost 16k for a 5% share, or an Unbridled Energy huge colt who will race at golden Gate Fields for people I never heard of, cost 6k for 5% share.
I like them both visually. The UE colt has an arched neck like a Spanish horse. Very Stallion-like. The flatter looks like a 2yo. we have such purse differences here . . . intriguing problem.

Hi Toccet,
Be very careful.....these prices are just way over the top. Flatter stands for $5,000 this season and Unbridled Energy's stud fee is $6,000. Concerning ROI, the Flatter colt would have to earn $320,000 before you would start to show a profit. The Unbridled Energy colt must earn $120,000 to start to make a profit and these figures don't include upkeep. Check below and form your own opinion as to their value. TJ
Unbridled Energy:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... nglesearch
Flatter:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... nglesearch

[Toccet02]

I should point out that these would not be my investments, but a recommendation to a friend who may want another share of a horse. These are West Point offerrings. So the price includes all upkeep through the remainder of the 2yo year. I'd be interested in knowing if you guys still think they are overpriced.
Also, even though I don't have the strength to give all info ( wrist surgery), just pick one over the other! Go with your gut.

[Turn-To Fan]

Hi Toccet,

I looked at the videos of both colts and I like the Flatter colt. I know what you mean about him being pushed into stakes but his trainer is Carla Gaines and if you look at her training of Camp Victory (also for West Point), she only tried him in one stakes. She also ran Camp Victory in an allowance at Golden Gate, so she is not opposed to running at Golden Gate as well.

As far as price, both colts came out of the Barrett's March Select sale. The Flatter colt cost $165k (the #9 highest price at the sale) and the Unbridled Energy colt cost $27k. West Point adds in one year of training costs, overhead, and some compensation for themselves. That's how the share prices are arrived at. You are also paying for the "West Point experience". They have activities for their partners at the track, sales, etc, and arrange tickets and travel. They communicate with partners about each horse's training and future plans. They produce a lot of online videos of each horse. West Point is a well-known, high-end partnership. Their horses are picked out by Buzz Chase and are fairly successful (Awesome Gem, Macho Again). Do most of their horses break even? No, but you can say that about the entire horse racing industry.

[FOS]

hi Toccet02

... The (Unbridled Energy) colt has an arched neck like a Spanish horse.

Your first impression doesn't exactly whet my appetite/interest re a supposed potential racehorse.

Does he come with some gaucho attire ?

The flatter looks like a 2yo.

If he's a 2-yo, that's arguably a good place to start...don't ya think?

At least he doesn't have the neck of an Andalusian or Paso Fino .

These are West Point offerrings. So the price includes all upkeep through the remainder of the 2yo year. I'd be interested in knowing if you guys still think they are overpriced.

It all starts with the horse, and (based on the limited info you've supplied) the numbers do seem a bit rich. That said...if/when a 2-year-old in training separates him/herself from the ordinary, doesn't sound unreasonable (as far as I'm concerned) to think that the price may be more (maybe a whole lot more) than one may expect (based on little more than sire/pedigree).

A question I may ask of you is...is the horse doing/showing enough to justify the numbers (being asked).

Bottom line...you've supplied little/no info re how they're training. Without anything further to consider, I'd say zip the pockets shut, or at the very least BEWARE.

... even though I don't have the strength to give all info ( wrist surgery), just pick one over the other! Go with your gut.

Money aside... based on the extremely limited info you provided, seems to me the one that looks like a 2-yo (racehorse I assume ) may be a better place to start than with an indivdual who you compare to a Spanish horse (your words).

If the destination was the the pampas...maybe the colt with an arched neck like a Spanish horse would make the most sense.

Lots to ask and feel comfortable with before signing on...

...and if/when in doubt, it may be best to PASS.

Remember...there's always another deal.

Respectfully

[majxmom]

Golden Gate has cut purses twice this year, but the fields are so small it's a lot easier to run 4th or better and get a check to help pay the bills. But I have a partnership colt that runs in Delaware, and gosh, the money is so much better there while the expenses are the same.

[Toccet02]

es thanks all, and FOS yes i meant no dis to the Flatter colt. He looks fine. The other has almost a stallion's neck and I don't know if that's so great for racing. Turn To Fan, you understand the WP scenario completly. Pay big for the chance to earn big. I currently have a share with them so I know their expensive perks. And I stand corrected on trainer. I think if my pals want to jump in, I will recommend Flatter colt. Better breeze video, good prgress updates for both.

[karenkarenn]

Toccet
Since I own a share in a horse at GGF, I would have to get a second or better to pay the monthly bills. Why would an Unbridled Engergy horse go to GGF the purses are too low. Dont do it.
Karen

[tbrace]

They've already given up on the UE colt if he's starting at GGF.

Both sound way over priced to me.

[madelyn]

I don't know much about West Point Thoroughbreds.. but I thought I might share what happened to three horses I sold to a big syndication outfit LIKE West Point Thoroughbreds.

They purchased two 2 yo's and a 3yo from me, with a cash payment up front and another payment when each would make it first start, followed by another pmt when each would get its first win.

The first filly was training up a storm, ready for her first start. They hired some kind of yobbos to save $$ to haul her from Lexington to the track where they were going to enter her. The filly had never had a problem loading, but the yobbos got into her, got her to flip over (I've heard a'holes like that saying I'll teach this m-fing horse a lesson I'll flip the b'tard). She got a hind leg under the wheel well of the trailer and slashed right through the hind tendon.

The next, a colt, was training fabulously. They got him to their home track. The trainer was pushing the works furiously, pressured to race him, and sent him out in a very deep sloppy track and he shattered a hind cannon bone.

The third, another filly, was sent to a dirt cheap little place in VA with a track that looks about 6 ft wide, tiny and undulating. She got sore a few times, took forever to get going, and eventually went to a "name" trainer at Fair Hill. They said she was dead slow and the partnership folks offered to give her back to me. She came home 200lbs under weight, just eaten up with EPM, after having had a published work 3 days earlier.

In each of the above three cases, "investors" who purchased shares in these horses lost their "investment".

The partnership fellows apparently don't VISIT the horses in training. I would be extremely leery of using the word "invest" regarding these partnership.

[LB]

I don't know much about West Point Thoroughbreds.. but I thought I might share what happened to three horses I sold to a big syndication outfit LIKE West Point Thoroughbreds.

They purchased two 2 yo's and a 3yo from me, with a cash payment up front and another payment when each would make it first start, followed by another pmt when each would get its first win.

The first filly was training up a storm, ready for her first start. They hired some kind of yobbos to save $$ to haul her from Lexington to the track where they were going to enter her. The filly had never had a problem loading, but the yobbos got into her, got her to flip over (I've heard a'holes like that saying I'll teach this m-fing horse a lesson I'll flip the b'tard). She got a hind leg under the wheel well of the trailer and slashed right through the hind tendon.

The next, a colt, was training fabulously. They got him to their home track. The trainer was pushing the works furiously, pressured to race him, and sent him out in a very deep sloppy track and he shattered a hind cannon bone.

The third, another filly, was sent to a dirt cheap little place in VA with a track that looks about 6 ft wide, tiny and undulating. She got sore a few times, took forever to get going, and eventually went to a "name" trainer at Fair Hill. They said she was dead slow and the partnership folks offered to give her back to me. She came home 200lbs under weight, just eaten up with EPM, after having had a published work 3 days earlier.

In each of the above three cases, "investors" who purchased shares in these horses lost their "investment".

The partnership fellows apparently don't VISIT the horses in training. I would be extremely leery of using the word "invest" regarding these partnership.

I wouldn't generalize about West Point based on your experience. It sounds as though your horses went to a very different kind of partnership.

Not only do the people who run West Point visit their horses in training, they post much of what they see during those visits on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/WestPointTBreds for everyone to watch. more detailed info is available to folks who actually invest with them.

[Toccet02]

yes I have had lots of contact with WP people and they seem very respobsible, decent and knowledgable. I wouldn't expect anywhere near these horror stories with them. But yes I have decided on the Flatter. My main draw to the UE colt was his size and very fluid walk. looks very well put together. Thanks everyone.