Why the Bluegrass Stakes and Wood Memorial have lost meaning

[Bast]

It's simple.

They've been pushed back in the calendar so that the horses who do well in these races are not the competitive ones several weeks later in Louisville.

For those not familiar with past practice, the Wood Memorial used to be run 2 weeks prior to the Kentucky Derby, and the Bluegrass Stakes the second Thursday prior to the Kentucky Derby. There was noise about too little time between races, but the winners/good finishers had a lot more to do with the outcome in the Kentucky Derby.

We now have a Kentucky Derby based on old performances--with the requirement for graded stakes earnings, sometimes very, very old performances. Horses are hyped for something they did a month or more before, sometimes what they did as 2 y os.

Don't be shocked if we (once again) have a Derby that unravels much like the Florida Derby did, with horses expected to deliver a lot not showing much and surprises at the finish. That's just the way the schedule and the earnings rule now shape the race.

[bdw0617]

you know.. you are right.

it used to be a series of preps. Now, it's more like a buffet and all the good horses get too spread out. It used to be, you go to the Florida derby then you either go to the bluegrass or the wood, then the derby. Now, you go to either the floria derby, the wood or the bluegrass.

even if the blue grass went back to dirt,

It used to be, let's get our horse ready to the derby. Now, it's let's get our horse to the derby with as much hype as possible in one piece. that's all that matters now.

[Bast]

it used to be a series of preps. Now, it's more like a buffet and all the good horses get too spread out. It used to be, you go to the Florida derby then you either go to the bluegrass or the wood, then the derby. Now, you go to either the floria derby, the wood or the bluegrass.

It's become a game of picking up graded stakes winnings, not necessarily the best races for getting a horse to the Derby.

The unpredictability of the Derby is undermining the whole triple crown series.

[dublino]

The unpredictability of the Derby is undermining the whole triple crown series.

Now are someone noted for outlandish staements I find this even laughable.

And your whole rant about graded earnings blah blah blah.
You know how the do it in Europe, people with the best horses run them in the Derby.
Ocasionally you get 1 clown who wants to run his horse in the field and it doesn't belong there but generally 99% of the time people don't want to run their horse if its going to embarass them.

I don't think Americans have the grace to say hey my horse doesn't belong and certainly you can bet your bottom dollar anyone trying to tell Sir Michael Stoute which race to run his horse in (ala Repole and Pletcher) would be told to go find another trainer asap.

If your own about races like the Florida Derby not panning out the way you thought and lost a few $ on bets, well boo hoo.

Its horse racing these are young 3 yr old horses constantly developing, thats why the Kentucky Derby picture is always unclear to say its undermining the Triple Crown series thats crazy talk.

[Bast]

Now are someone noted for outlandish staements I find this even laughable.

I find your grammar and verbal confusion laughable.

Ocasionally you get 1 clown who wants to run his horse in the field and it doesn't belong there but generally 99% of the time people don't want to run their horse if its going to embarass them.

I don't think Americans have the grace to say hey my horse doesn't belong and certainly you can bet your bottom dollar anyone trying to tell Sir Michael Stoute which race to run his horse in (ala Repole and Pletcher) would be told to go find another trainer asap.

No one knows who really belongs and who really does not any longer, which is exactly my point. As recently as 1969, there were only 8 starters in the Kentucky Derby.

Any owner who allows himself to be led around by "trainers" should just go out on a street corner and throw money into the nearest crowd instead of owning racehorses.

If your own about races like the Florida Derby not panning out the way you thought and lost a few $ on bets, well boo hoo.

More grammar/verbal disarray. I don't bet on these races.

Its horse racing these are young 3 yr old horses constantly developing, thats why the Kentucky Derby picture is always unclear to say its undermining the Triple Crown series thats crazy talk.

Characterizing the Kentucky Derby as eternally uncertain is not accurate. Seattle Slew was no longshot. Spectacular Bid wasn't either. In the past, when horses had more prep races closer to the time of the Kentucky Derby, there typically were dominant horses going into the race whose running styles were known.

Now, we get 20-horse Derbies with most of the starters as unknown quantities. When the Derby results indicate a weak group, the Preakness tends to be no improvement and the Belmont becomes just another graded stakes race.

[kimberley mine]

It used to be, let's get our horse ready to the derby. Now, it's let's get our horse to the derby with as much hype as possible in one piece. that's all that matters now.

There is a poster on the Thoroughbred Champions board who posits that rather than being the jumping-off point for a top 3yo, the KD is now the final race of an extended juvenile campaign. I agree.

Here are the top three finishers since 1995:

2010 Super Saver Ice Box Paddy O'Prado
2009 Mine That Bird Pioneerof the Nile Musket Man
2008 Big Brown Eight Belles Denis of Cork
2007 Street Sense Hard Spun Curlin
2006 Barbaro Bluegrass Cat Steppenwolfer
2005 Giacomo Closing Argument Afleet Alex
2004 Smarty Jones Lion Heart Imperialism
2003 Funny Cide Empire Maker Peace Rules
2002 War Emblem Proud Citizen Perfect Drift
2001 Monarchos Invisible Ink Congaree
2000 Fusaichi Pegasus Aptitude Impeachment
1999 Charismatic Menifee Cat Thief
1998 Real Quiet Victory Gallop Indian Charlie
1997 Silver Charm Captain Bodgit Free House
1996 Grindstone Cavonnier Prince of Thieves
1995 Thunder Gulch Tejano Run Timber Country

Funny Cide, Real Quiet, and Silver Charm are the only ones of the lot that trained on as older horses. Giacomo won one G2 as an older horse.

Aside from the strong crop of 2007, you have to go back to 1998 with Real Quiet and 1997 with Silver Charm to find a very strong group that trained on and won.

[Fireslam]

It used to be, let's get our horse ready to the derby. Now, it's let's get our horse to the derby with as much hype as possible in one piece. that's all that matters now.

There is a poster on the Thoroughbred Champions board who posits that rather than being the jumping-off point for a top 3yo, the KD is now the final race of an extended juvenile campaign. I agree.

Here are the top three finishers since 1995:

2010 Super Saver Ice Box Paddy O'Prado
2009 Mine That Bird Pioneerof the Nile Musket Man
2008 Big Brown Eight Belles Denis of Cork
2007 Street Sense Hard Spun Curlin
2006 Barbaro Bluegrass Cat Steppenwolfer
2005 Giacomo Closing Argument Afleet Alex
2004 Smarty Jones Lion Heart Imperialism
2003 Funny Cide Empire Maker Peace Rules
2002 War Emblem Proud Citizen Perfect Drift
2001 Monarchos Invisible Ink Congaree
2000 Fusaichi Pegasus Aptitude Impeachment
1999 Charismatic Menifee Cat Thief
1998 Real Quiet Victory Gallop Indian Charlie
1997 Silver Charm Captain Bodgit Free House
1996 Grindstone Cavonnier Prince of Thieves
1995 Thunder Gulch Tejano Run Timber Country

Funny Cide, Real Quiet, and Silver Charm are the only ones of the lot that trained on as older horses. Giacomo won one G2 as an older horse.

Aside from the strong crop of 2007, you have to go back to 1998 with Real Quiet and 1997 with Silver Charm to find a very strong group that trained on and won.

Musket Man, Perfect Drift, Congaree, Aptitude, and Curlin might disagree with that statement

[reenci]

seems to me that ....well to put it plain and simple...people are to stupid, ego driven beyond belief to realize there horse or in many cases "horses" dont belong ....limit the gate to 14 horses...graded earnings...and thats that ..forget the aux. gate...Dubai world cup has it right...14 starters....the 20 horse fields have caused us to miss a couple triple crown winners in years past...enough is enough ..and the powers that be are just standing still as the sport decays

[dublino]

I find your grammar and verbal confusion laughable.

I find your pettiness and ignorance enlightening.

Just because 300 million spell it wrong, doesn't make it right.

Characterising.

[bdw0617]

seems to me that ....well to put it plain and simple...people are to stupid, ego driven beyond belief to realize there horse or in many cases "horses" dont belong ....limit the gate to 14 horses...graded earnings...and thats that ..forget the aux. gate...Dubai world cup has it right...14 starters....the 20 horse fields have caused us to miss a couple triple crown winners in years past...enough is enough ..and the powers that be are just standing still as the sport decays

I believe alot more horses "would" belong if they ran proper campaigns.


easy fix would be to limit the derby field to 15, top 3 in the Wood, Santa Anita Derby, Arknasas Derby, Florida Derby and Bluegrass.

[kimberley mine]

It used to be, let's get our horse ready to the derby. Now, it's let's get our horse to the derby with as much hype as possible in one piece. that's all that matters now.

There is a poster on the Thoroughbred Champions board who posits that rather than being the jumping-off point for a top 3yo, the KD is now the final race of an extended juvenile campaign. I agree.

Here are the top three finishers since 1995:

2010 Super Saver Ice Box Paddy O'Prado
2009 Mine That Bird Pioneerof the Nile Musket Man
2008 Big Brown Eight Belles Denis of Cork
2007 Street Sense Hard Spun Curlin
2006 Barbaro Bluegrass Cat Steppenwolfer
2005 Giacomo Closing Argument Afleet Alex
2004 Smarty Jones Lion Heart Imperialism
2003 Funny Cide Empire Maker Peace Rules
2002 War Emblem Proud Citizen Perfect Drift
2001 Monarchos Invisible Ink Congaree
2000 Fusaichi Pegasus Aptitude Impeachment
1999 Charismatic Menifee Cat Thief
1998 Real Quiet Victory Gallop Indian Charlie
1997 Silver Charm Captain Bodgit Free House
1996 Grindstone Cavonnier Prince of Thieves
1995 Thunder Gulch Tejano Run Timber Country

Funny Cide, Real Quiet, and Silver Charm are the only ones of the lot that trained on as older horses. Giacomo won one G2 as an older horse.

Aside from the strong crop of 2007, you have to go back to 1998 with Real Quiet and 1997 with Silver Charm to find a very strong group that trained on and won.

Musket Man, Perfect Drift, Congaree, Aptitude, and Curlin might disagree with that statement

I was unclear--in the first instance I was referring to winners, not top three.

In the second instance, I was referring to the whole crop. And while your point is taken, I wish to add that those five are still the exception and not the rule.

[bdw0617]

case in point. shackleford came in 2nd in the florida derby. right now on the outside looking in purse wise, with 200k

15 years ago, going to the bluegrass or the coolmore was a no brainier. now they are going to "sit out and hope 200k gets them a spot in the derby". pathetic.

[Whirlaway]

If Uncle Mo' wins in the Wood and goes on to run in and win the Derby, will the Wood all of the sudden, "have meaning." If the winner of the Blue Grass goes on to run in the Derby, will the Blue Grass all of a sudden, "have meaning." How do you define the terms, "have meaning?" Do those terms have any meaning?

I think the significance can be found only in relationship to the horses running at the time. I believe it wasn't that long ago we had a thoroughbred that could run nine furlongs and then run ten furlongs two weeks later - in some cases one week later. They would use the Wood and the Bluegrass as Derby preps. That thoroughbred able to perform, what then was routine, no longer exists. Likely they moved the races back to accommodate the changing nature of the thoroughbred.

[Terrapin Flyer]

Now are someone noted for outlandish staements I find this even laughable.

If your own about races like the Florida Derby not panning out the way you thought and lost a few $ on bets, well boo hoo.

Sounds like something my friend Bob Loblaw would say.

[zinn21]

I got curious and looked at most of the Derbies from the 50's, 60's and 70's. A lot of Derby winners 30 years back came out of the Bluegrass which was run 9 days prior to the Derby.

The last 10 Derbies; 2 prepped in the Arkansas Derby; 2 in the Wood Memorial; 2 in the Florida Derby and 1 each in Sunland Derby, Santa Anita Derby, Illinois Derby and the Blue Grass Stakes.

Go back 20 Derbies and 4 of the 20 prepped in the Wood. 4 of 20 in the Arkansas Derby. 4 of 20 in the Blue Grass. 3 of the 20 in the Santa Anita Derby. and 2 of 20 in the Florida Derby. Prior to 2005 the Florida Derby was run in mid March and several of the previous mentioned ran in the Florida Derby prior to their final prep.

So from the last 10 Derbies; 50% ran in a prep 3 weeks in advance of the Derby. 20% ran in a prep 5 weeks in advance of the Derby. 20% ran 4 weeks in advance. In the last 20 Derbies; 60% prepped in an event 3 weeks in advance. 15% 4 weeks in advance and 10% 5 weeks in advance.