Why do sire lines fail?

[Bast]

Why do some sire lines fail?

How could a sire like Bull Lea fail to produce sons who became good sires, for example?

[Patuxet]

Or why do other once-mighty ones seem to peak and then suddenly peter out? Hyperion's for example?

[bdw0617]

no variation IMHO when it comes to the selection of broodmares.

[kimberley mine]

My guess is multiple factors.

There could be some sex-linked stuff going on. Consider Double Jay, who was an extremely able sire of racehorses (10% SW from foals), an astoundingly good sire of broodmares, and a not-quite-total-failure as a sire of sires. His best siring son, Sunrise Flight, died at 10 after only a few crops. His tally as broodmare sire included Nodouble, John Henry, Old Hat, Queen Empress, What Luck, Kittiwake, and Ferdinand (among others). Go another generation and his daughters' daughters were producing fantastic horses (Barbarika, Shadeed, Skip Trial) and his sons out of those daughters had.....Nodouble. Awful sire of sires, awful broodmare sire of sires, stunningly good sire of broodmares, stunningly good as 2nd broodmare sire--all of that points to sex-linked performance genetics.

Some seem to pass on significant conformation flaws that keep their foals from running. I'm thinking of Riva Ridge and Reviewer here. Outside of the Lady Pitt line of the Phipps horses and sons of Mr Greeley, it's very difficult to find either Riva Ridge (hind end) or Reviewer (bones) these days.

Some seem to need specific genetic factors that may or may not be present in a particular broodmare population. The poster Pete (who, sadly, isn't posting anymore) had a theory about Hyperion and Halo, and that is related to why Sunday Silence was so phenomenally successful in Japan and Southern Halo in Argentina whereas not so much in North America. I'm seeing a bit of the same in why Storm Cat hasn't done much of much in Australia, but fellow Northern Dancer line horses Nijinsky and Danzig have been so incredibly successful. Nijinsky loves Hyperion in any way he can find it, and Danzig wants more and more and more Fair Trial. Another example is Blushing Groom with Rough'n'Tumble....nearly nonexistent outside North America, very high strike rate in North America.

[DDT]

The majority of stallions get a chance at stud because of their racing performance, if that horse is also well bred, then all the more reason to see if he can pass that ability along. Bull Lea led the U.S. sires list 5 times, and each year his highest earner was bred and raced by Calumet Farm. Their environment and training may have had more to do with racing success than genes. I also agree that the mare is the key in most cases, but stallions like Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Storm Cat and A.P. Indy demonstrated their ability to sire successful sons who are also successful sires. Here it must be remembered that those particular 4 stallions had a great advantage as to the types of mares being bred to them.

Citation was not the first nor is he the last of champion race horses that fail as stallions or sire of sires.

DDT

[Jorge]

What can we comment about Ambiorix. What happened to him?

[Bast]

What can we comment about Ambiorix. What happened to him?

This is the puzzle of the failed sire line. Ambiorix was a good sire, and did not lack for opportunity. Yet today, he rarely appears even in the bottom of pedigrees.

[diomed]

Clive Harper has a very interesting take on the sire lines and the pedigree patterns of their success in his book The Thoroughbred Breeders Handbook. I highly suggest reading it if you can ever get your hands on a copy. Very rare.

[xfactor fan]

Could you provide a quick re-cap of the information?

[Bast]

Could you provide a quick re-cap of the information?

Yes, please. This looks like very expensive-to-come-by information.

[xfactor fan]

For the record the two things a sire line represents is

1) the movement of the Y chromosome. Which doesn't in itself carry all that much information,

And 2) The pedigree line that has been subjected to the greatest human selection pressure.

Maybe sireline aren't all that important?

[Jorge]

Yet today, he rarely appears even in the bottom of pedigrees.

Perhaps the only exception is Gray Phantom (Ambiorix -- Grey Flight).
We owe that one to his mom. Perhaps Wise Phantom (Gray Phantom -- Track Wise) may assist in a lesser manner via new sire Gold Gift.

[Jorge]

Yet today, he rarely appears even in the bottom of pedigrees.

Perhaps the only exception is Gray Phantom (Ambiorix -- Grey Flight).
We owe that one to his mom. Perhaps Gray Phantom may assist in a lesser manner via new sire Gold Gift.

CORRECTION: GOLD GIFT DESCENDS FROM THE GREAT GRAY BROODMARE LAGRIMAS, NOT FROM WISE PHANTOM (1966).

[Shammy Davis]

I normally have a link to reference, but I don't in the case. Many years ago, I read an article that spoke to dam line prepotency and its importance. I do know that the canine world weighs its breeding toward the importance of the bitch sire, particularly with field and hunting stock.

I also think that DDT is correct. Lack of opportunity maybe the greatest obstacle for a sireline to succeed. I chuckle when people speak of the success of DANZIG. As most of us recall, Woody Stevens had to beg Seth Hancock to make DANZIG a stud at Claiborne.

I think the Marylanders have the best approach. While everyone else is trying to develope their sires in KY or waiting for KY sires to falter to regional markets, Maryland breeders spend a great deal of time developing and marketing their studs from the ground up. Malibu Moon, Two Punch, Not for Love and Prenup, all come to mind.

[Bast]

I also think that DDT is correct. Lack of opportunity maybe the greatest obstacle for a sireline to succeed. I chuckle when people speak of the success of DANZIG. As most of us recall, Woody Stevens had to beg Seth Hancock to make DANZIG a stud at Claiborne.

Bold Lad failed at Claiborne, as did Tatan and Pago Pago. There are others, of course, but analyzing failures with opportunity should tell us something.