Ben's Cat fiasco a joke

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:02 pm

The horse has made $330,000 in his last 2 starts and will have his expenses paid to run and get to the BC Turf Sprint, but Leatherbury won't run unless someone pays the $100k supplemental nomination for him. What a joke, most people would take $100k out of the kitty from the last 2 races, put the leftover $230,000 in their pocket and enjoy running in the Cup. Maybe this is why he's not in the Hall of Fame, I don't think the voters think too highly of nickle and dimers no matter how many wins they have.

Fireslam · Postby **Fireslam** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:11 pm

How many race horses have you paid the bills on, for how many years? If you think he would just pay the $100k entry fee and put the rest in his pocket, you havent a single clue. I wouldnt do it either. That $100,000 pays for a lot of feed.

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:28 pm

Many, I've owned race horses since my freshman year at College. So then he should just say he's not running. Instead of expecting someone to pay for him to run and maybe get their money back in that one race. You either put up the money to run in the big dance or stay home and be quiet.

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:31 pm

I also train...so go on. I guess I don't have a clue on how to run a jip operation you got me there.

DDT · Postby **DDT** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:44 pm

Terrapin Flyer

This horse has earned over 600K, not bad for a horse who did not make his first start until he was 4, and I agree that his breeder/owner/trainer should take the 100K out of earnings, however, the King has a similar feeling about the "Win and your In" Breeder's Cup races, they are not win and your in, they are win and you are eligible to run, you still must pay the fees. To use this as an excuse to call one of the all time great claiming trainers a jip operation and as one of the reasons he is not in the Hall of Fame is a low blow to say the least.

DDT

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:57 pm

I agree and disagree at the same time. I don't like him coming out basically asking for a handout, that's low class IMHO. Not a low class trainer, man is one of the best trainers in American history, no doubt about that.

Also, he was on HRTV not that long ago, the day before the governors cup at Penn National, and he was doing an interview and talking about how hard it is for him to get new owners, etc, then he turns around and just basically, says "I don't want to play" on the big stage. At this point, he is making the decisionj to say where he is. He owns the horse if i am not mistaken.

Also, just putting the cards on the table.. don't really think he can win the race. I'm sure King probably feels the same way, if he did not, he owuld up the ante and pay the money IMHO.'

Also, he could always ship the horse overseas. The coolmore lighting stakes is in november if i am not mistkaen, that's a 500k race.

kimberley mine · Postby **kimberley mine** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:05 pm

I would not bet one red penny on a US-trained horse against Aussie sprinters on their home turf.

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:12 pm

kimberley mine wrote:I would not bet one red penny on a US-trained horse against Aussie sprinters on their home turf.

lol me neither. But just saying if he wants to run in big races he's not limited to paying 100k to do so.

But really it's a no lose situation if he goes to the Breeders Cup. The truth of the matter is, he's not a well known trainer, because he's a claiming trainer and because he's on the Maryland circuit. You know if he runs in the BC they aregoing to run some 5-10 minute bio type peice on him and his accomplishments. I don't see how that's a bad thing as far as getting his name out there.

For my money the Coolmore lighting is yuear in year out the toughest turf sprint in the world IMHO. You have to bring your running shoes to win that one.

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:13 pm

DDT,

The win and you're in pays $10,000 in travel expenses for horse and crew, plus pre-entry and entry fees, so an extra $30,000 for that race is covered. If the horse was nominated to the BC as a foal (he wouldn't have to fork out the $100k), there wouldn't be many expenses to run for $1 mil.

I shouldn't have called it a jip operation, that was wrong, I was more riled up about someone implying I don't know how much feed costs. But it's a show like this that makes the people in the KY & NY old boys club roll their eyes. Many claiming trainers get knocked until they get a few big horses, when you get one and don't run it in the BC (because you didn't nominated it as a foal, then won't pay to nominated) it might as well just be another claimer to them. He was a great claiming trainer, but this will probably stand out in most peoples' minds outside of MD, more than all of his wins.

kimberley mine · Postby **kimberley mine** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:29 pm

bdw0617 wrote:
For my money the Coolmore lighting is yuear in year out the toughest turf sprint in the world IMHO. You have to bring your running shoes to win that one.

Well, there's nothing wrong with doing a Pico Central and skipping the BC. There is money to be made elsewhere, even if not going overseas. And overseas, Hong Kong and Singapore are better places for a horse of this level. He's good...but again, not good enough for even the second tier Aussie sprinters, the Beadeds and Crystal Lillys of the world. (How insane is it that those two mares are their second tier?)

Win and You're In is a gimmick that fell on its face. If a horse isn't nominated, and its name isn't Invasor, why bother? Ben's Cat is a gelding...running in the BC is major financial risk for a low chance of payoff and no incentive to get that big score on a stud resume.

DDT · Postby **DDT** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:37 pm

Terrapin Flyer

I should have been more specific about the fees, at any rate, the old boys in KY and NY are the reason racing is in its present state, of course they do not race for the money, most of them do not need financial assistance. I also agree that the King could have been a little more diplomatic but I doubt very much that he will be remembered more for complaining about the 100K than for his career as a trainer, only the shallow will think that way.

DDT

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:40 pm

if they did that, the entire breeders cup organization could very well fall flat on it's face. people will then just say "well if i can't win a win and you are in race i don't need to be there anyway" which is a good point lol. Then no one would bother paying BC nomination fees.

still it's just 500 dollars to nominate a foal the year it's born. don't think that's very unreasonable but i could see if you are nickle and dimming your way, how you would probably not want to pay it.

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:51 pm

DDT,

I agree about the old boys club and about the way the shallow think...but they are the ones you need on your side to get voted into the Hall.

I guess I just come from the school that if you have a horse that is good enough to run in a Stake or in this case, the BC you put up the money and run. That is the goal, to beat the best. If your horse belongs then it has rewarded you enough along the way to cover the expenses to run and it should be rewarded with a chance to show its a champ.

kimberley mine · Postby **kimberley mine** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:14 pm

bdw0617 wrote:
still it's just 500 dollars to nominate a foal the year it's born. don't think that's very unreasonable but i could see if you are nickle and dimming your way, how you would probably not want to pay it.

Terp, it all depends on whether you look at racing as entertainment, a business, or a hobby business. If I'm Suzy Homebreeder with the nicest mare I can afford (still keep coming back to Daughter of Wolf as the archetypal breed-to-race mare), taking her to the nicest stallion in PA I can afford, reality is I should expect to get an allowance-class runner and go from there. Allowance runners at Philly Park will make a good living, but they're never going to earn anything from the BC and I could use that $500 for other things. If I get a big surprise a la Ben's Cat, so be it....but the likelihood of that happening is vanishingly small.

If I'm a small breeder and my mare's name is Vertigineux, and the stallions I'm using for my mare have fees of $50k and up, then my expectation of getting a horse for whom that $500 fee has any chance of reward goes way up, and it makes sense to pay that fee. Likewise if I'm breeding for the commercial market, even just FT Timonium, then it makes sense to pay that fee.

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:39 pm

Kimberley Mine,

I agree, I used to nominated everything I bred, now I'm a little more selective. Usually my sales horses get nominated, the others don't. That being said if one of the breed to race horses won a "win and you're in" I wouldn't hesitate to put up the cash to run. Even more so if I still own the mare, a BC win for a gelding can still be benficial if you've got the mare in your backyard, it's not all about making a stallion.