wow i thought i would never see the day
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-b ... ts-system/
No more graded stakes earnings for the derby
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bdw0617
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No more graded stakes earnings for the derby
"When the solution is simple, God is answering.”
- Einstein
- Einstein
Re: No more graded stakes earnings for the derby
bdw0617 wrote:wow i thought i would never see the day
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-b ... ts-system/
Hi bdw,
Very little difference that I see other than graded earning are given points instead and sprints get zippo. They did this so a horse like Trinneberg doesn't get a shot to run in the derby because his graded earnings were in sprint's. TJ
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bdw0617
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it's more than that.
the 2YO races don't count for barley anything anymore. the breeders cup juvenille is worth 10 points tops whereas the Arkansas derby is wroth 100 points to the winner. i like this a lot.
also it makes horses run. a byproduct of this is that horses can't have predetermined campaigns anymore beucase they can't take the chance of them laying an egg. for instance union rags this year would not have ran in the derby beucase he only came in 3rd in the florida derby. so he would have had to also run in probably the bluegrass 2 weeks later or the arkansas derby.
this is a really really good thing.
the 2YO races don't count for barley anything anymore. the breeders cup juvenille is worth 10 points tops whereas the Arkansas derby is wroth 100 points to the winner. i like this a lot.
also it makes horses run. a byproduct of this is that horses can't have predetermined campaigns anymore beucase they can't take the chance of them laying an egg. for instance union rags this year would not have ran in the derby beucase he only came in 3rd in the florida derby. so he would have had to also run in probably the bluegrass 2 weeks later or the arkansas derby.
this is a really really good thing.
"When the solution is simple, God is answering.”
- Einstein
- Einstein
bdw0617 wrote:it's more than that.
the 2YO races don't count for barley anything anymore. the breeders cup juvenille is worth 10 points tops whereas the Arkansas derby is wroth 100 points to the winner. i like this a lot.
also it makes horses run. a byproduct of this is that horses can't have predetermined campaigns anymore beucase they can't take the chance of them laying an egg. for instance union rags this year would not have ran in the derby beucase he only came in 3rd in the florida derby. so he would have had to also run in probably the bluegrass 2 weeks later or the arkansas derby.
this is a really really good thing.
Hi bdw,
Maybe from your standpoint....but not so good if you have a nice horse trying to prepare for the derby and is forced to make races that these genius' have decided they need to run in....the horse may not be ready for the effort...ends up pushing the horse to make points, gets hurt and doesn't even get to the Derby. I liked it better when people used their own common sense and knew you went to the Triple Crown with a good horse....not just to say you ran in it. TJ
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bdw0617
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i respect your position. but from the overall scheme of things it accomplishes 2 things
1. it adds real drama to the triple crown trail. in the past say you were tuning into the florida derby to see if union rags or big brown were "legit" or "phony" and now you are tuning in to see who is actually going to the derby whereas in the past it was a foregone conclusion.
2. it makes horses race against each other. you say that you want horses prepared for the big race but history proves that the best horses and the ones that are best prepared are the ones that run against other good horses.. IHa this year ran against the best group hands down and it showed at churchill. owners can no longer do the triple crown tango where they dodge and dance around each other until they HAVE to run against each other
with that said i do respect you and where you are coming from and i see that for instance street sense would not have gotten in the derby most likely in 07 under this for mat, it's just not my stance.
horse people seem to be irrated by this. HRTV they spent a good 15 mins tearing it down, but in the end i think it will prove better than the current setup
1. it adds real drama to the triple crown trail. in the past say you were tuning into the florida derby to see if union rags or big brown were "legit" or "phony" and now you are tuning in to see who is actually going to the derby whereas in the past it was a foregone conclusion.
2. it makes horses race against each other. you say that you want horses prepared for the big race but history proves that the best horses and the ones that are best prepared are the ones that run against other good horses.. IHa this year ran against the best group hands down and it showed at churchill. owners can no longer do the triple crown tango where they dodge and dance around each other until they HAVE to run against each other
with that said i do respect you and where you are coming from and i see that for instance street sense would not have gotten in the derby most likely in 07 under this for mat, it's just not my stance.
horse people seem to be irrated by this. HRTV they spent a good 15 mins tearing it down, but in the end i think it will prove better than the current setup
"When the solution is simple, God is answering.”
- Einstein
- Einstein
bdw0617 wrote:i respect your position. but from the overall scheme of things it accomplishes 2 things
1. it adds real drama to the triple crown trail. in the past say you were tuning into the florida derby to see if union rags or big brown were "legit" or "phony" and now you are tuning in to see who is actually going to the derby whereas in the past it was a foregone conclusion.
2. it makes horses race against each other. you say that you want horses prepared for the big race but history proves that the best horses and the ones that are best prepared are the ones that run against other good horses.. IHa this year ran against the best group hands down and it showed at churchill. owners can no longer do the triple crown tango where they dodge and dance around each other until they HAVE to run against each other
with that said i do respect you and where you are coming from and i see that for instance street sense would not have gotten in the derby most likely in 07 under this for mat, it's just not my stance.
horse people seem to be irrated by this. HRTV they spent a good 15 mins tearing it down, but in the end i think it will prove better than the current setup
Hi bdw,
We can go round and round with this...some for some against, personally I don't like to be told where I have to run if I have a quality horse that I will point for a big race...I know where to point them and don't need a play book to get there. Trainer's like to plan their horses races according to their horses schedule and condition....to have a bunch of races earmarked to run in order to make the derby, many times you may not be able to make the deadline between, minor injures etc....too much big brother BS for me:>) TJ
my only beef is with the glam people who run a horse that does not belong...just clutter up the field and ruin chances for legit runners....but just like the state our country is in...LACK OF COMMON SENSE...seems its more elusive than a triple crown winner... 
A great man cannot help himself," "He can see things that other men cannot see themselves, and his greatness lies in doing whatever is necessary to make his vision real
100 points for the big ones
Under the new system it is very unlikely that the following Derby winners would have made it into the Derby gate: Ferdinand, Sea Hero, Charismatic, War Emblem, and Mine That Bird. Sea Hero earned only 10 points by finishing 4th in Fla Derby, Mine That Bird earned only 10 points by finishing 4th in the Sunland Derby, War Emblem earns zero points, Charismatic earns only 10 points in his 4th place in the SA Derby. Ferdinand would have only earned 20 points for finishing third in the SA Derby. I don't think any of the above horses would be in the top twenty Derby contenders.
Re: 100 points for the big ones
stancaris wrote:Under the new system it is very unlikely that the following Derby winners would have made it into the Derby gate: Ferdinand, Sea Hero, Charismatic, War Emblem, and Mine That Bird. Sea Hero earned only 10 points by finishing 4th in Fla Derby, Mine That Bird earned only 10 points by finishing 4th in the Sunland Derby, War Emblem earns zero points, Charismatic earns only 10 points in his 4th place in the SA Derby. Ferdinand would have only earned 20 points for finishing third in the SA Derby. I don't think any of the above horses would be in the top twenty Derby contenders.
Hi Stan,
There might have been a possibility that Animal Kingdom may not have had enough points to run in the KY. Derby. He only won the Spiral, which under this system has only 50 points. A race like the UAE Derby that gets no significant runners in the Derby is 100 points? Seems this sytem may be flawed and will need some tweaking. How can the power's that be, after seeing Motion's Derby schedule with Animal Kingdom and Went the Day Well only give 50 points to the Spiral? This will either cause Motion to adjust his training style (of cutting it close yet having the confidence as a trainer to train his horse into condition rather then running them into condition) or run more times than it seems he likes too. He and his owner could be the first calling for race point changes in this new system. TJ
Last edited by TJ on Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
I can also see this system creating an unintentional paradigm shift in the entries for graded stakes for three year old colts in the US. Races not on the Derby qualifier list will go begging for good horses while the races on the list will have everyone clamoring to get in. Yet another way that Churchill Downs is trying to create a class system. If I had a racetrack hosting a graded event not on the list I would be starting a class action suit against CDI - I understand the eight furlong minimum, no problem with that, except not for two year olds. A lot of two year olds start out in shorter races using them as conditioners for going longer..
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....