Bandini--I am going to get slammed for saying this
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Bandini--I am going to get slammed for saying this
But for some reason whenever i look at this horse he reminds me of Jose Canseco
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louis finochio
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Green Hills
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jim10366 wrote:Well I have read accusations on another forum about TP's horses having an awful lot of muscle to them. Do horses get tested for growth hormone?
I don't think any of ours have "an awful lot of muscle" (if that means an inordinate amount) and most of ours are with him. And I certainly haven't made any payments for any such thing...and I'm sure that wouldn't be for free...
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roving boy
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You would be surprised - sometimes billed as "appetite stimulants" or "feed supplements" - how easy it is to "hide"/"disguise"/"prevent a long explanation of" expenses.
Most trainers bill everything they purchase....the day rate does little more than pay the daily expenses, trainers make their money in their share of the purses. These people are doing everything they can to get the best possible performance in a very competitive game, and believe it or not, most of them live this 24/7 lifestyle because they love horses.
Many of these issues which are later boldly painted as "Right and Wrong" are not initially so black and white. The Monday morning quarterback is never wrong....but he was never in the real game to begin with.
Also realize that there are a number of supplements that increase the Total Carbon Dioxide levels...."milkshakes" are not the only way to increase these levels. Remember that GastroGuard was responsible for Elusive City's DQ in two stakes in England....which in turn led to a reduction of money earned for Elusive Quality which resulted in Distorted Humor replacing Elusive Quality as the Leading Freshman Sire.
In short, this is a very difficult game, a highly competitive game, a game in which the media offers an opinion on everything one does. It is tough to cast the first stone with any real understanding of the game.
Most trainers bill everything they purchase....the day rate does little more than pay the daily expenses, trainers make their money in their share of the purses. These people are doing everything they can to get the best possible performance in a very competitive game, and believe it or not, most of them live this 24/7 lifestyle because they love horses.
Many of these issues which are later boldly painted as "Right and Wrong" are not initially so black and white. The Monday morning quarterback is never wrong....but he was never in the real game to begin with.
Also realize that there are a number of supplements that increase the Total Carbon Dioxide levels...."milkshakes" are not the only way to increase these levels. Remember that GastroGuard was responsible for Elusive City's DQ in two stakes in England....which in turn led to a reduction of money earned for Elusive Quality which resulted in Distorted Humor replacing Elusive Quality as the Leading Freshman Sire.
In short, this is a very difficult game, a highly competitive game, a game in which the media offers an opinion on everything one does. It is tough to cast the first stone with any real understanding of the game.
Roving Boy
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Green Hills
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jim10366 wrote:Thats good to hear.
On a side note though, if a trainer were using any sort of illegal substance, i don't think they would be advertising this or billing the owner for it
Let me tell you something...I don't know how well you know him on a one to one level...but I do...and I am very sure about our horses. Very sure.
roving boy wrote:
Also realize that there are a number of supplements that increase the Total Carbon Dioxide levels...."milkshakes" are not the only way to increase these levels. Remember that GastroGuard was responsible for Elusive City's DQ in two stakes in England....
Would GastroGuard be off limits now at tracks that are testing for "milkshakes"?
jim10366 wrote:Well I have read accusations on another forum about TP's horses having an awful lot of muscle to them. Do horses get tested for growth hormone?
You can't test for HGH (human growth hormone -- that's why it's not on MLB's list of banned substances), so I'm pretty sure you can't test for it in horses either.
Is GastroGuard illegal in the US? And if so, why? It's used to treat/prevent gastric ulcers- how/why would that be illegal?
Ill-bred wrote:roving boy wrote:
Also realize that there are a number of supplements that increase the Total Carbon Dioxide levels...."milkshakes" are not the only way to increase these levels. Remember that GastroGuard was responsible for Elusive City's DQ in two stakes in England....
Would GastroGuard be off limits now at tracks that are testing for "milkshakes"?
Well I just did a little research and apparently in Europe they can and do test for Growth hormone. The article below is from thoroughbred times in 2000.
they dont test in the US. Does not surprise me. Racing officials are still patting themselves in 2005 on the back for starting milkshake testing, the use of which was in fad maybe 2 decades ago.
It is just finally started trickling down last couple years to the real idiots who are always going to get caught. The supertrainers maybe well ahead of the curve.
Researchers can now detect equine growth hormone abuse- Thoroughbred Times 2000
"Researchers in England, Australia, and South Africa have discovered that the use of equine growth hormone (EGH) to enhance performance leaves behind chemical markers. EGH is a naturally occuring substance within the horse's body that disappears within hours after injection, making it difficult to detect.
One chemical marker of abuse of EGH is identified as IGF-1. After establishing a base level for normal Thoroughbreds, the scientists are now able to detect increased levels for at least a few weeks after its use.
Martin Sillence at Charles Sturt University in Australia led the research, presented to the British Endocrine Society on Wednesday. “It's not only a doping issue; animal welfare is involved,” said Sillence. "High doses of growth hormone can damage growing bones, and could eventually cripple a young horse. Hopefully we can prevent this.” The new tool has only a 1-in-30,000 chance of being inaccurate, he added.
According to Dr. Joanne Price of the University College in London, the drug “increases muscle mass, makes a horse look better, and may may it run faster.
"No one has been caught doping horses in this way, but then no one could be caught as there is no test. But there are rumors that trainers have been offered growth hormone," Price told BBC News Online.
The British Jockey Club denies the rumors, saying there is no evidence of the use of EGH in Throughbreds there.
Dr. Brian Shears, chief executive of the British Horse Racing Forensic Lab told the BBC, “I'm not aware of any evidence, but if it was found or was in the future, it would need to be controlled.”
they dont test in the US. Does not surprise me. Racing officials are still patting themselves in 2005 on the back for starting milkshake testing, the use of which was in fad maybe 2 decades ago.
It is just finally started trickling down last couple years to the real idiots who are always going to get caught. The supertrainers maybe well ahead of the curve.
Researchers can now detect equine growth hormone abuse- Thoroughbred Times 2000
"Researchers in England, Australia, and South Africa have discovered that the use of equine growth hormone (EGH) to enhance performance leaves behind chemical markers. EGH is a naturally occuring substance within the horse's body that disappears within hours after injection, making it difficult to detect.
One chemical marker of abuse of EGH is identified as IGF-1. After establishing a base level for normal Thoroughbreds, the scientists are now able to detect increased levels for at least a few weeks after its use.
Martin Sillence at Charles Sturt University in Australia led the research, presented to the British Endocrine Society on Wednesday. “It's not only a doping issue; animal welfare is involved,” said Sillence. "High doses of growth hormone can damage growing bones, and could eventually cripple a young horse. Hopefully we can prevent this.” The new tool has only a 1-in-30,000 chance of being inaccurate, he added.
According to Dr. Joanne Price of the University College in London, the drug “increases muscle mass, makes a horse look better, and may may it run faster.
"No one has been caught doping horses in this way, but then no one could be caught as there is no test. But there are rumors that trainers have been offered growth hormone," Price told BBC News Online.
The British Jockey Club denies the rumors, saying there is no evidence of the use of EGH in Throughbreds there.
Dr. Brian Shears, chief executive of the British Horse Racing Forensic Lab told the BBC, “I'm not aware of any evidence, but if it was found or was in the future, it would need to be controlled.”
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roving boy
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Gastroguard does not increase the TOC levels and is not illegal in the US. My apologies for that unintended impression.
I was trying to demonstrate how an unequivocally beneficial product can be responsible for an increased test level of a prohibited substance.
There are supplements that increase TOC levels. Some of those supplements may be among the list of supplements that Keeneland and Churchill recently released to trainers stabled there or intending to run there. A very good move by track management to help trainers that may otherwise come up with a bad test (without malicious intent). It is a very difficult issue.
I was trying to demonstrate how an unequivocally beneficial product can be responsible for an increased test level of a prohibited substance.
There are supplements that increase TOC levels. Some of those supplements may be among the list of supplements that Keeneland and Churchill recently released to trainers stabled there or intending to run there. A very good move by track management to help trainers that may otherwise come up with a bad test (without malicious intent). It is a very difficult issue.
Roving Boy
jim10366 wrote:Well I have read accusations on another forum about TP's horses having an awful lot of muscle to them. Do horses get tested for growth hormone?
When you pay million$ of dollars for top horseflesh they better have "an awful lot of muscle to them". You'll also see an awful lot of muscle in this weekend's NFL draft. World class athletes whether equine or human usually have "an awful lot of muscle to them" save marathon runners and the like.
TP is a very good horseman/trainer and is no more honest or dishonest then the people/horses he is running against day-in-and-day-out. He's just a little better at what he does than most of his peers.
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Green Hills
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horsenuts wrote:jim10366 wrote:Well I have read accusations on another forum about TP's horses having an awful lot of muscle to them. Do horses get tested for growth hormone?
When you pay million$ of dollars for top horseflesh they better have "an awful lot of muscle to them". You'll also see an awful lot of muscle in this weekend's NFL draft. World class athletes whether equine or human usually have "an awful lot of muscle to them" save marathon runners and the like.
TP is a very good horseman/trainer and is no more honest or dishonest then the people/horses he is running against day-in-and-day-out. He's just a little better at what he does than most of his peers.
I absolutely agree, from a personal standpoint, I have to say that he has done great stuff for us with our horses. But it would seem that success MUST be caused by doing something wrong (read: illegal, or cheating)
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