SIRE LINES OF GIACOMO

[louis finochio]

GIACOMO GR. C. 2002
Holy Bull---Set Them Free, by Stop the Music

Holy Bull has the following sire lines to be found within his 5 generation pedigree.

1 cross of (Questionnaire) thru Free For All---1 cross of (Massine) thru Mustang---1 cross of (Fair Play) thru Intent---2 crosses of (Peter Pan) thru Better Self and Blue Swords---1 cross of (Swynford) thru Mahmoud---1 cross of (Gainsborough) thru Abernant---1 cross of (Dark Ronald) thru Herbager---1 cross of (Teddy) thru I Will---4 crosses of (Phalaris) thru Royal Charger, Menow, Nasrullah, and Fair Trial---2 crosses of (Prince Rose) thru Sicambre and Prince Bio---and 1 cross of (Tourbillon) thru My Babu.

SPEED EARLY MATURING
Abernant
Fair Trial
I Will
Royal Charger
Nasrullah

STAMINA LATE MATURING
Free For All
Massine
Intent
Mahmoud
Herbager
Better Self
Blue Swords
Menow
Prince Bio
Sicambre
My Babu

[WarHorse]

Post after post about Giacomo's breeding. Why did you tell us Giacomo would win BEFORE THE RACE?

[louis finochio]

Dont feel bad War Horse, as Giacomo was my Belmont pick and he ran his Belmont race in the Derby.

Time will tell if Giacomo will follow the footsteps of Gato del Sol, or will he keep winning at the classic distances that he was bred for.

[kimberley mine]

Whoever bred Giacomo was, in my humble opinion, rather shrewd. Some observations leapt out immediately:

--Holy Bull's dam traces to The Axe II through Al Hattab, while Giacomo's dam Set Them Free traces to the mare Bebopper. The Axe II x Bebopper produced the multiple Gr-1 winning Hatchet Man.

--Ta Wee crossed with two sons of Bold Ruler yielded three different multiple stakes winners.

Interestingly, there was NO linebreeding within 5 generations--but merely extended crosses of things that worked well in the past. Whoever planned this mating did her/his homework

[louis finochio]

Great mating as they tried and were trying to duplicate the Nasrullah (Phalaris) and Miss Disco (Fair Play) cross as you posted.

Closing Argument runner up was a product of this cross Successful Appeal (Fair Play) over (Phalaris) on the dams side.

[kimberley mine]

I liked Giacomo before the race based on his running style, but the more I look into his pedigree, the more impressed I am.

Louis, there is plenty more than the successful Phalaris over Fair Play here--this colt is absolutely stacked with the blue hen mare Mumtaz Mahal through two crosses of Mamhoud, one cross through Abernant, and one each of Royal Charger and Nasrullah within 7 generations.

The Mahmoud-Hail to Reason-Tom Fool extended cross has popped up with another big handicap-division winner: Silver Buck (Whitney, Suburban, etc), and with the addition of Nasrullah led to the champion Silver Charm.

In Reality + Mahmoud + Hail to Reason extended cross also produced the very honest, hard-knocking, stakes-winning gelding Overage (153-31-24-16).

Holy Bull over Tyrant (Nasrullah-Anadem, by My Babu) resulted in a G3 winning filly.

Finally the Holy Bull-Tom Fool cross has been tried before in the G3 placed Bullistic, Giacomo's workout buddy.

Somebody REALLY did their homework here.

[louis finochio]

What is the breeders name that bred Giacomo, as this is a proud moment for him as he will cherish this moment for the rest of his life?

[hdembski]

Let's cool it on how great Giacomo is bred. If so why didn't more people on this post hit the exacta or tri? Why wasn't he mentioned BEFORE the derby. Everyone is an expert after the derby. Fact is, you can take any horse who ran in the derby and do an extensive pedigree analysis and make him look good. I mean i bet Sort it out for a shot and he had many crosses to phalarsis & in his tail female line had several tap root mares listed very similar to Smarty Jones. And you can do this with any of the horses. Again if all the pedigree experts "loved" Giacomo so much you'd have keyed him in a tri or super and be rich today, hind sight is always easy to make a horse look good. There were many more well bred horses than him..

[kimberley mine]

Let's cool it on how great Giacomo is bred. If so why didn't more people on this post hit the exacta or tri? Why wasn't he mentioned BEFORE the derby. Everyone is an expert after the derby.

Go to the general discussion forum, with a post started by Jorge (Giacomo working well), and you'll find this:

His sire had no trouble at all with 10f, winning the Travers and Haskell. His dam is more of a sprinter. However, from his races, Giacomo doesn't seem to get warmed up until after a mile. In his last few races, he's always been in the thick of things--and I have said before that if he ever figures out to get his nose over the line first, he'll be a big competitor.

Some of us DID pick him. I liked the way he ran in the SA Derby, pure and simple. I picked him based on that run, and on the work at Churchill. After that, I started looking into his breeding, and so I am impressed.

It's not his fault he's not sired by Fu-Peg or birthed by Personal Ensign.

[hdembski]

If you had him, i give you congrats. I laugh though at the DRF "pedigree expert" Lauren Stitch who didn't even mention Giacomo at all! The truth remains, if you bet the "best bred horses" in the derby, your not betting Giacomo. your betting Bandini, Noble Causeway. Even shots like sort it out & Flower alley had a better breeding chance to win the derby. The dam had only one other horse of note Sea Jewel who was OK but not a world beater. Fact is The derby is not an indication of who is the best 3 year old and i'm guessing Giacomo will not win the Preakness. There simply is no one who can tell me based on Pedigree those 2 horses "figured". These horses are 3 year olds and are tempermental. Some don't like the track, some wash up d/t crowd or media, so many are getting knocked around with way too many horses in the race, so basically, the derby comes down to luck and who got the perfect trip. But as i said, you can pick a $3,000 claimer and do a pedigree entended research and make him sound like a derby winner. Every horse has blue blood somewhere in his pedigree. And how many trainers say "how great their horse was doing" or how "he is flourishing at churchil" or how great he "galloped out after his last race"? Every trainer feels his horse is best.

[katydid]

But as i said, you can pick a $3,000 claimer and do a pedigree entended research and make him sound like a derby winner. Every horse has blue blood somewhere in his pedigree

Interesting thing is it only takes what amounts to 1 generation to breed out something that winds up taking several generations to breed back in. However, a horse with a strong extended pedigree has that genetic material in there it just has to be unlocked. AKA Hybrid Vigor =D I think breeders need to seriously consider the future of the breed, and really start to question the "health" of those sire and dam lines that are being bred into the ground. Its diluting at such a rapid pace, each year you can literally see the horses getting weaker and weaker, they aren't getting any faster in spite of all the technology and advancements in nutrion and sports medecine available to trainers these days. Do I think there would ever be a revolutionary change in breeding practices? No, because racing is a business driven by market appeal.

As far as Giacomo, so I can actually tie in to the thread topic =P I wasn't that impressed with his run to be honest, I think he was ridden well. Afleet Alex, especially, ran a good race....he was in the thick of it almost the entire way in what amounts to a horsey mosh pit. He still managed to pull into the top 3 when most of the other horses that were in with him faded and cracked under the pressure. What I didn't like was seeing AA's owner *crying* after he "lost"... good grief I *wish* I could be disappointed in a horse that has a mil 5 in earnings =P Imagine what my other horses would be making!

[kimberley mine]

Hdemski, the point I was trying to make in my first couple of posts on this thread is not that he is the most superbly bred horse in that field (because I don't think he is). I do think that he might be the most carefully bred horse in the field, and that is what impresses me.

Looks to me like Giacomo's connections knew all that I have written above (oh, and Giacomo's breeding is an extended reverse cross of Cure the Blues on top of everything else), or figured it out. This excercise in genetic wild-ass guessing probably took a lot of time, research, and effort as well as the luck that goes into any mating. So even if Giacomo never wins another race, that careful work paid off to the tune of $1,000,000 for his people. Congrats to them for doing their homework. I give them an A+.

[hdembski]

You obviously know tons more than me about breeding. I'm not sure if the breeders were lucky or good, nobody knows. I'm a admitted novice to this stuff but have been betting for 20+ years and into pedigree maybe 2-3 years. I mean look up a horse called "Zippy Chippy" he has a better dosage and GSV than Giacomo and has never broken his maiden! I've seen a horse in a 5k claimer who was bred by Dajur and safely kept! That's a pedigree you would think would win the breeder cup sprint! I've always believed in breeding the best to the best, but in all i think Giacomo merely got lucky and had the perfect trip. But if you say the breeders planned this all out perfectly, then congrats to them and to the trainer who had him perfectly peaked for the derby. I only know i'll make a lot more money betting better bred horses like i did antonius pius in the breeder cup mile than betting a horse like giacomo who on paper showed little reason to bet him. Perhaps the 2 bullets at Hollywood were the clue.

[Ruffian]

Breed the Best to the Best and hope for the Best

Is all I have to say- Giacomos breeders could be shrewd blahblah or they could of had a season to Holy Bull thought ah send the old mare over & bang Giacomo, might of been a Derby winner, might of been a claimer or just not even raced. Unless you are the breeder you cannot say- and I look forward to reading an interview with the breeders owners, just to clear it up. Personally they are my idols- they bred this horse and didn't flog it and won the Derby- it would be the ultimate dream come true for me

[WarHorse]

Jerry Moss (of A&M Records) is stated as the breeder. Which my cynical streak says he likely had nothing to do with it, and we'll never know who did come up with the nick.