days between works?

[Pie™]

I've got a three year old just starting to breeze. She spent 92 days over the winter doing a lot of jogging, and then the last two weeks of that, adding hand gallops. She's been at the track for the last 57 days. She's already got her gate card and she's doing great. She's done a couple unposted 2f works, and 8 days ago she posted her first 3f work. Today she posted her 2nd 3f work. I'm concerned because I'd like the trainer to be more conservative and allow 10-12 days between works for the bone to remodel. Before I storm in there tomorrow and lay down the law, whats the general consensus on days between works?

[Tucumcari]

Everyone I know tends to go every 6-7 days unless otherwise indicated.

[Laro]

We always use 6-7 days unless there is a problem.

[ageecee]

7-10 days is the norm for unstarted 2 or 3 yr olds

[louis finochio]

Have you had your Tb X-Rayed to see if her knees are closed?

If they are not closed, then you have to wait until they are ready to start galloping.

Some trainers will wait an extra day if there is a problem. If there is no heat then you can even wait another day.

Its better to under train than over train.

[LSB]

If you have so little faith in your trainer's ability that you feel the need to "storm in and lay down the law" you probably need a new trainer whether his intervals between works are the same as most other trainers use or not.

[Tucumcari]

Well said, LSB. I fully agree. You selected this individual on some merrit, and must have something that inspired you to do business with him/her. You hired him to perform a service based on his expertise, let him do his job! Don't be one of "those" owners. Soon he'll be screening your calls and hiding in the shedrow...

[FOS]

hi Pie

After reading the course of events as you described them...I ask, what's the problem?

You wrote (in the following order):

"I've got a three year old (filly) just starting to breeze..."

"She spent 92 days over the winter doing a lot of jogging..."

"... the last two weeks of that, adding hand gallops."

"She's been at the track for the last 57 days."

"...she's doing great."

"She's done a couple unposted 2f works..."

"...8 days ago she posted her first 3f work."

"Today she posted her 2nd 3f work."

You wrote "I'm concerned because I'd like the trainer to be more conservative and allow 10-12 days between works for the bone to remodel."

You ask "Before I storm in there tomorrow and lay down the law, whats the general consensus on days between works?"

Pie...I suggest that there are lots of considerations and circumstances that could affect a training (including workouts) schedule pertaining to a horse that's getting fit (and ready) to race.

Instead of storming in tomorrow...why not stay opened minded...have a quality meeting with your trainer and ask about the training schedule (including workouts) and what he/she has planned for your filly. I suggest...be prepared to LISTEN...and also share your opinions and concerns...and ask questions if you'd like to. You might be surprised to learn that your trainer not only wants your filly to succeed (probably every bit as much as you do) but also might have a well thought out plan (that's in your filly's best interest).

And by the way...8 days between "works" (which based on your comment seems to be the current "work" schedule for your filly) on the surface doesn't sound unreasonable to me (although not a spacing which I'm used to hearing...at least on a regular basis).

You wrote "I'd like the trainer to be more conservative and allow 10-12 days between works for the bone to remodel."

Pie...nothing is etched in stone...7 days...8 days...12 days...whatever. As I recommended...you might be best served by discussing it with your trainer.

But I ask...All Things Considered...is there something specific (relating to your 3-yo filly) that suggests that your trainer might be too aggressive in the training and/or workout schedule that he/she has planned for her?

Respectfully

[Pie™]

only that we have discussed it, on two or three ocassions and have agreed to 10-12 day intervals (because I've spent the past 8 years training as well), and he knows how I feel about this particular issue - and we have already agreed to 10-12 days intervals - and when the filly posted her first work - we then specifically agreed to the filly not working again til tomorrow, which would've been 10 days - and I was surprised to find the stable alert yesterday morning telling me that she had worked.

That would be the only reason that I would feel the need to be this "aggressive" now in my approach with the trainer. I tend to go way the other way with my trainers, giving them far too much latitude in making decisions, but once they step on my toes, I really like to know why?? And now, I'd like to know why we agreed on X - and he felt like it was okay to do Y. I think anyone would feel the same.

[CS]

Pie - if you are so concerned about how the horse is being trained, and you state that you yourself are a trainer, perhaps you should just train the horse yourself. It would save you and the other trainer a lot of headaches. No trainer wants an owner who storms in and lays down the law. It just harbors resentment on both sides. I don't know many trainers who would take that kind of treatment anyhow. He may just tell you to take the horse and do it yourself if you do. Remember - these are professionals and deserve to be treated with respect. Although you pay the bills, he is the one doing all the work. Give the guy some credit. Perhaps he is using his professional experience to determine her training schedule. If you are not there then you really don't know. I suggest asking politely, not telling.

[Pie™]

semantics - you guys are all as bad as my husband.....

I say, "I hate" and he thinks I literally mean, "I hate". Okay, man, I like my trainer - he was hand selected by me and I worked my deal out with him for 13 months before I let him have my horses - and he's great so far. But, a deal is a deal and not having your politely expressed wishes followed, at some point - you do have to get firm if its important to you. If not, then you shut your mouth. This one, along with the toe grabs, was important to me. And she's still got those one too.

so now I just get politely firmer is all. I'm not a professional trainer, I've done my own training up til now - these two fillies have the most going for them which is why I farmed them out. I know when I've got something that the pro's ought to be involved in and so far, my instincts have been right on. But I don't want anyone getting anxious and raining on my parade. My instincts usually have been pretty good - unless and until I let myself be intimidated by the guy with the license. I'm trying to not let that happen.

Thanks for the advice. I got alot more real advice on the question I asked on the other boards - no bashing about why I wanted to "storm in there" and more real answers about folks that are following a 6-8 day regimen with no problems and telling me that my filly sounded like she had a solid bottom on her.

[roving boy]

I do not know how you can accuse anyone of "bashing". "Semantics" may be a decent argument when one refers to conversation, but when in print there is no tone and the "semantics" must be taken at face value. We are all "husbands" when faced with no tone.

By the way, this sounds familiar - does this mean men are more likely to take things literally, and may therefore be more careful in their semantics/word choice...sometimes?

[Pie™]

don't even think I used the word bash but .... I'm gonna call my trainer and make sure he took the toe grabs off my girl - and since the general consensus seems to be - from the gals I know who train in CA, FL, and KY that this filly has a good bottom and 8 days is not that close given some more recent New Bolton research studies...I'll let him proceed, but also let him know that we had just discussed, 4 days ago, her not breezing til tomorrow, so I was shocked to see that he had over rided our joint decision without further discussion. After all - it is about communication that makes for a successful owner/trainer partnership and honoring agreements.

[Roguelet]

Remember - these are professionals and deserve to be treated with respect. Although you pay the bills, he is the one doing all the work. Give the guy some credit. Perhaps he is using his professional experience to determine her training schedule. If you are not there then you really don't know. I suggest asking politely, not telling.

Well.... yes and no. Pie is the owner of the horse. Period. The trainer works for Pie. Period. I suggest that a great number of us (myself included) have first hand experience with poor trainers, and there are plenty of them out there. There are also plenty of good trainers out there. But IMO the horse's OWNER has the responsibility of making sure that things are going well with their horse, and oftentimes if you just assume that the horse is being properly cared for, you will regret that decision later.

The part that bothers me about this scenario is the fact that the owner and the trainer had agreed on a schedule. If the trainer felt the need to change the schedule that had already been discussed and agreed upon, IMO a phone call was in order first. Maybe there were very legitimate reasons to alter the schedule. But a phone call doesn't take very long to make.

It all comes down to trust. An owner needs to find a trainer that they can trust not only to properly care for their horse, but also that they can trust to communicate honestly and openly with them about their horse. Bad trainers are a dime a dozen; good trainers are priceless. If you can't trust that your horse is being taken care of in a manner that you are comfortable with when you are not there... I suggest that there are plenty of other trainers out there to choose from.

That said, once you find one that you can trust, you do need to let them do their job. But, doing their job does NOT necessarily mean that they can make decisions about your horse that are different from what you have agreed upon together in a prior discussion, and you most certainly should not just assume that a trainer is trustworthy, honest, knowledgeable or a good horseman or woman just because they have a trainer's license.

I do agree that the trainer should be approached in a civil, professional manner and asked the reasoning behind the schedule change. The issue can be discussed and if the trainer has a reason that is satisfactory to you... great! If you're comfortable and think the horse is doing well... great! In that case, the trainer should not have a problem discussing this with you. If not, look elsewhere for a trainer.

The horse comes first, not the trainer's ego.

(Re-reading this, it may sound harsh... which is not really what I was trying to sound like. However, I've seen several horses suffer needlessly under the care of "trainers" who should never have been given a license. I thank the "horsey-gods" every day for the trainers I have now, as they are wonderful and 100% trustworthy... I hope you have found the same in your trainer.)

[halo]

I hesitate to get into this as Ive been on both sides of the fence. Training horses is not an exact science. There is no way on this earth that you can say you will breeze your horses every 10 days. No way. Sometimes you have to go 8 days. Sometimes you have to go 10 days. Sometimes 5 days. The horse might have a small issue that makes you wait a few more days. You might have to breeze sooner than you wanted due to weather considerations, or rider considerations, or the track being closed for maintenance. Sometimes if a situation comes up that you can breeze in company, or work out of the gate with company, you take it, even if it means going a day or two before "schedule".

If youre getting bent out of shape over this, you're in for a long hard road.
The minute you put these horses on a schedule, youre lining yourself up to break your schedule. You have to go DAY BY DAY, period. You have to plan according to the horse, not according to what you want to set some arbitrary schedule. If you dont trust your trainer, do it yourself.