Kitten's Joy's Knee Trouble :(

[StrawberryFelidos]

Looks like Kitten's Joy's knee is acting up again, Ramsey says it is likely he will be retired
http://racing.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=30119
Poor guy, this really hasn't been his year- first the surgery, then the quarantine... He did good in the Firecracker, but at the Million you could tell he wasn't the same horse, no kick at the end (and that bull about him not handling the wet turf- did anybody see the Joe Hirsch turf course last year? Soppy! The dirt track was mud! Yet he powered to the lead in that race with no problem). He still has his heart, but that knee is screwing him over.
It's sad to hear that he probably won't be back, but I'd rather have him retired than to see him struggle. It hurts to see a champion falter and fall back from injuries, and he doesn't deserve treatment like that. Let him live the good life and remember the magic he posessed on four good legs

[FOS]

hi StrawberyFelidos

You wrote re: Kitten's Joy "He did good in the Firecracker, but at the Million you could tell he wasn't the same horse, no kick at the end (and that bull about him not handling the wet turf- did anybody see the Joe Hirsch turf course last year? Soppy! The dirt track was mud! Yet he powered to the lead in that race with no problem). He still has his heart, but that knee is screwing him over."

Respectfully SF...maybe that wasn't "bull" about Joy's inability to handle the "wet turf" (your words). A "soppy" or "wet turf" (your words), or yielding turf course etc is different than a wet or sloppy track. Even good turf (which is wet but a notch below firm) can be problematic for many turf runners. And arguably course conditions can vary from one turf course to another.

I submit that many horses (including some bigger...heavier bodied types) sometimes seem to sink into a soft or yielding turf course. Many of those get muscle sore (as a result) to boot. Those same horses often love the wet or sloppy track.

Take a look at some of the sires that seem to be most successful getting runners that perform well throughout Europe. The ones that sire offspring that can handle other than firm ground seem to be in great demand...because many many of the races (across the pond) end up running on varying degrees of wet or "soppy" (your word) turf...and not on firm ground.

To suggest that many of Europes premier racing takes place on other than a firm surface is probably a fair comment. Seems like there's often plenty of soft or yielding or heavy-going etc there.

In North America though...often when the turf course is deemed too wet and/or yielding or heavy or possibly unsafe to race on, the race (that was originally carded on the turf) is moved to the main track. You'll find that a good portion of horses (that were entered to run on the turf) might be scratched when that occurs...despite the fact that the main track (which they'll now be asked to perform on if they don't scratch) is wet or sloppy.

You might notice also that some horses are entered in some turf races (in North America) with the designation MTO. In such a case that particular horse will only be eligible to start if the race is taken off the turf and run on the main track. It might be a fair assumption that such a horse does not like good...or soft...or yielding turf etc; but likes a wet or sloppy track.

I assure you that there is a HUGE difference between the firm turf and the...good...yielding etc turf.

Respectfully

[StrawberryFelidos]

Well, I'll admit I wasn't specific enough with my words (soppy, heh, not quite): both the Joe Hirsch Turf Classic Invitational (which he won impressively) and the Arlington Million (which he didn't fire in) were run on yielding courses. To say that he did not handle yielding courses when he put in, arguably, his most publically acclaimed run on a yielding course, seems a tad strange. I sense that at Arlington the knee was acting up again like it did in the BCT, when it chipped, especially since his two works coming out of the Million were poor ones. My opinion, I know, but with his history with the knee and his credible run in the yielding Hirsch, I don't believe that he couldn't handle a yielding surface. I think it was the knee.

One way or the other, I'll be terribly sorry to see him go. When I saw him live in the Secretariat, and on television in the Hirsch, he was absolutely breathtaking. That horse could really kick ass, it's a shame that his knee isn't as strong as his heart

[FOS]

hi StrawberryFelidos

You might be 100% correct...maybe it is the knee.

I guess (to some extent) the point I was attempting to make was that the disparity between turf courses (even when two courses might both be listed as yielding) could be significant. One course might lean in the direction of good whereas the other might lean in the opposite direction...although each was tagged as yielding (by the powers that be).

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a course listed as good (for example), but if you walked on it you'd sink in over your ankles...and would feel like suction was trying to keep your foot from being pulled-out. To my way of thinking that's not a course that should be designated as good. It's probably fair to say that disparities could be found between turf courses, regardless of designations...similar or otherwise.

Back to Kitten's Joy...I see him as a monster turf horse, and it's a shame if his career has been compromised (or ended) due to injury. He appeared to have incredible talent.

If he's finished...we can only imagine what his future might have been.

What a gifted racehorse...as you wrote, he "...could really kick ass."

Respectfully

[BenB]

There is a very or extremely difference between natural exsisting turf tracks. It all depends on the surface byond the grass.
Our hometrack is having under the surface sand. It ain,t become extremely firm. But when it is heavy, the horses will go at least half a feet
down.
Hamburg in Germany as it lies in bog ground, when that become heavy
after rainfall a couple of days before racing, the horses will go down at least three quarter of a feet, than they are ploughing through and through
Therefore your needs a horse with a round action, that pulls himself out of the mud. Closers don,t have a change on that ground coming from last as it cost too much muscles power.
The curragh in Eire can be rock firm, like your racing on concrete as there is rock below the surface within half a feet.
Oostende in Belgium ditto, your able to hear the shoulders cracking while
racing. But it ain,t become heavy no matter how much of rainfall
Leopardstown in Eire can be very heavy too, like longchamps where the L,arc is taking place. This tracks won,t become very firm no matter what
circumstances

[StrawberryFelidos]

Interesting analysis, Ben. We in the US of A so rarely talk about anything but dirt, dirt dirt. I still blame his knee, but the different surfaces persepective is interesting. I wonder what the Belmont turf is like when it is yielding?

We should know by tommorow whether or not he's retiring or coming back this season (taps fingers impatiently).


And, idly, I wonder if this EBAY seller has made many sales:
http://cgi.ebay.com/KITTENS-JOY-8x10-co ... dZViewItem

[FOS]

hi BenB

Thanks for sharing your insights. I'd say interesting and valuable.

Best to you.

Respectfi\ully

[BenB]

Strawberry felidos, what makes it interesting is to now, what kind of surface is under the grass. Clay for instance can get soaked, than it,s becoming real heavy, bog land ditto even worse. Sand because it,s hydraulic can,t get soaked only wet. Muscles can gets problems if the underground is soaked. Mostly backproblems, the muscles are strecthed out too much. So more information on the Belmont park underground is valuable for picking up the horses. If it,s yielding I would say, the euro,s
are having an advantage. Or horses bred in the us with euro connections
sire and or dams

[BenB]

The worse turf tracks, are the ones with a clay or bog underground.
Which were very heavy and starts drying, the ground gets sucking, so the horse is having problems to gets his feet,and pasterns out of it.
Or it starts to become heavy because of the continues rainfall
This murders almost any horse. Knees muscles and backs are severe tested.

[Ill-bred]

Kitten's Joy has retired due to his knee condition and will stand at Ramsey Farm in 2006....

[StrawberryFelidos]

It is, indeed, as was said

Champion turf male Kitten’s Joy retired with knee injury
By Pete Denk,Thoroughbred Times

Kenneth and Sarah Ramsey’s Kitten’s Joy, champion turf male of 2004 and one of the leading contenders for the Breeders’ Cup Turf (G1) on October 29 at Belmont Park, has been retired due to damaged cartilage in his left knee.
The four-year-old son of El Prado (Ire) out of the winning Lear Fan mare Kitten’s First will enter stud at Ramsey Farm in Nicholasville, Kentucky. No stud fee has been announced.

"We’re going to stand him at a fee so all the little breeders can get to him," Ken Ramsey said on Monday. "I’m hopeful he’ll be able to breed me a Melbourne Cup (Aus-G1) or [Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (Fr-G1)] winner."

Kitten’s Joy showed signs of discomfort a few days after a September 12 workout at Belmont Park, according to trainer Dale Romans. Kitten’s Joy underwent arthroscopic surgery to remove a bone chip from his left knee at the end of his 2004 campaign and Romans said the wear and tear took its toll on the cartilage in the knee.

"He was an exceptional horse," Romans said on Monday. "He’s by the far the best and the most talented horse I’ve trained. He and Roses in May are the two that stand out. [Kitten’s Joy] was so easy to train and easy to be around."

After finishing fifth in his career debut in a five-furlong maiden special weight race on the dirt at Saratoga Race Course on August 20, 2003, Kitten’s Joy never finished worse than second again. He won nine of 14 career races and earned $2,075,791.

As a three-year-old he won six graded stakes races, including the Secretariat Stakes (G1) at Arlington Park and the Joe Hirsch Turf Classic Invitational Stakes (G1) at Belmont Park. He ran on the grass the last 12 races of his career.

"We worked him on the turf for the first time at Saratoga and it was like turning on a switch," Romans said. "He was a totally different horse on the grass."

Kitten’s Joy made two starts in 2005, winning the Firecracker Breeders’ Cup Handicap (G2) at Churchill Downs and then finishing second behind Powerscourt (GB) in the Arlington Million Stakes (G1).

"I would not stop on this horse if he wasn’t who he is," Ramsey said. "Dr. [Larry] Bramlage said we could go on with the horse but he probably would not have the explosive kick which is his trademark for winning races. I don’t want to do anything that would cheapen the horse. He’s been good to us."



Well, good for them. It really hurts to see a good horse cheapened or in pain, hell, any horse for that matter, but especially the special ones

[monicabee]

Belmont racetrack is on the Hempstead Plains, selected as the site of the original "Newmarket" racecourse by New York's first British Governor Richard Nichols in the 1680's because its sandy, infertile soil created a grassland ideal for racing. Newmarket was followed by the Union racecourse and finally Belmont, all in the same general area.

Similarly, Saratoga racetrack is on a sandy base (wherever you see lots of pine trees on the east coast it tends to be a sandy, quick draining soil).

The ratings may not be perfect, but they are a fair predictor - some horses perform on these tracks only when they are yielding, though I doubt they are ever as deep as some of the tracks BenB describes.

[StrawberryFelidos]

Interesting information about the Belmont track- where did you learn about that? Very detailed and informative
I'm wondering now what the Arlington turf is like, since that's the closest thing I have to a close betting track.
Back to Kitten's Joy, I'm starting to wonder when they'll tell us his fee. Call me as curious as a...kitten...but I want to know!

[Ill-bred]

Ken Ramsey says KJ's fee will probably be $20,000 or $25,000 although that's not written in stone.

[StrawberryFelidos]

Mmm... if I was doing the deciding I'd set the lower price. Get more mares that way, and the babies don't have to sell for as much to make a profit (and since he's a turf man you know that ain't gonna be commercial to begin with- not saying it's right, but it's so). Then again, the Ramseys are likely to provide a lot of their own mares like they do for Catienus- if you work it that way, outside mares are just a bonus