A Couple of Derby Questions

[jacklantern]

Hey all. These questions have probably been raised. If so, I apologize.

For this year's Ky Derby, which horses have the X Chromosomes of War Admiral or Mahmoud? I've been unable to locate this info.

Also, I've been reading about the Raise a Native broodmare sire line being a "curse" of sorts on winning the derby. What about those horses (like Brother Derek) that have the RAN line on both their male and female sire lines? Are they still...well..."cursed"?

Any info. is greatly appreciated!!!

[GoutHurtsMyToes]

Hey all. These questions have probably been raised. If so, I apologize.

Well, frankly, yes, these questions have been raised--one too many times--and I am quite sick of answering. For you, however, being a "newbie" (I have twice as many posts as you), I'll go over it yet again.

For this year's Ky Derby, which horses have the X Chromosomes of War Admiral or Mahmoud? I've been unable to locate this info.

This data is covered (ad naseum) in Doestyevsky's "Crime And Punishment". I believe its discussed on pages 77-213. Unfortunately, many of the translated versions of this classic often lack a proper conversion of genetic nomenclature as it exists in the native Russian.

Also, I've been reading about the Raise a Native broodmare sire line being a "curse" of sorts on winning the derby. What about those horses (like Brother Derek) that have the RAN line on both their male and female sire lines? Are they still...well..."cursed"?

This should have been rather obvious to you. Clearly, since males are postive and (all) females (and I do mean all--especially ones from Canada) are negative, they cancel each other out. Thus, Brother Derek is not "cursed" (at least not genetically).

Hope this helps.

[Heidilady]

Hey all. These questions have probably been raised. If so, I apologize.

For this year's Ky Derby, which horses have the X Chromosomes of War Admiral or Mahmoud? I've been unable to locate this info.

Also, I've been reading about the Raise a Native broodmare sire line being a "curse" of sorts on winning the derby. What about those horses (like Brother Derek) that have the RAN line on both their male and female sire lines? Are they still...well..."cursed"?

Any info. is greatly appreciated!!!

Bless your heart, no problem, we'll check it out for you...RAN is simply broodmare's sireline. If it exists elsewhere that's all well and good but I've begun to theorize whether it has something to do with RAN's Y Chromosome not being a factor in the dam cuz obviously she's got XX. Something chromosome linked..I have no idea what but just a thought.

I'll work on looking for war admiral/mahmoud but it's 20+ horses so far so it'll take awhile. See what you can do is look up their pedigree and up above you'll see that you can highlight things in their pedigree like female family, X Chromosome, etc. so if you wanna look for it, it'll mark X Chromosome and you can just scan for the first few generations to see.

[Heidilady]

Update: So far I found a couple w/Mahmoud and War Admiral not in the X-Chromosome camp but at least in the dam's pedigree. I'll put new ones in as I go..it's harder than I thought because so many pedigrees don't have War Admiral,etc in at least the 5th generation..here's what I've got and the horses I've looked at presuming I've done this properly cuz I have to run back through pedigrees and you have to make it sure you keep straight whether a sire's passed the X by having a filly... (and assuming Sunriver, Sacred Light aren't in):

Out of Barbaro, Steppenwolfer, Private Vow, Showing Up, Cause to Believe, Jazil...Brother Derek, Bob and John, AP Warrior, Sharp Humor, Keyed Entry, Deputy Glitters, Seaside Retreat...Lawyer Ron, Sinister Minister, Sweetnorthernsaint, Bluegrass Cat, Point Determined, Storm Treasure, Flashy Bull.

One of them had Graustark X but Keyed Entry also has Blue Larkspur so he's actually got 2 large-heart gene possibilities if I understand the concept right. I'm hoping this is accurate but many of them have Man O'War in X or his sons War Relic or American Flag, also U-Boat. Flashy Bull's strangely got Gallant Fox in his X and Steppenwolfer has Citation.

Ok this should be it, sorry if I've missed any or messed it up but my feeble gaze has uncovered these. Only one dual War Admiral/Mahmoud and one in each group with 2 of the same horse's X.

Horses w/War Admiral: Sharp Humor, Keyed Entry, Blue Grass Cat (has War Admiral (twice), Point Determined, Storm Treasure
Horses w/Mahmoud: Showing Up, AP Warrior, Lawyer Ron (has Mahmoud X twice, Sinister Minister, Sweetnorthernsaint, Storm Treasure

[Sam]

Well, frankly, yes, these questions have been raised--one too many times--and I am quite sick of answering. For you, however, being a "newbie" (I have twice as many posts as you), I'll go over it yet again.

Was that really necessary?

[GoutHurtsMyToes]

Was that really necessary?

I'm almost certain that jacklatern is just casting his baited hook out into this pond we call a message board so that he can advertise some "book" he's written postulating half-baked theories about ancient equid chromatin and its influence on the Kentucky Derby in the modern era.

Maybe if he's able to post a few review topics covering fundamentals such as mitosis, genotype versus phenotype, hybrid vigor, and sex-linked traits I might be able to take this initial post more seriously. But I won't hold my breath.

Besides, I'm sure "Crime and Punishment" is the more exciting read.

[Sam]

I'm almost certain that jacklatern is just casting his baited hook out into this pond we call a message board so that he can advertise some "book" he's written postulating half-baked theories about ancient equid chromatin and its influence on the Kentucky Derby in the modern era.

And I'd love to hear why you feel that way.

See, I saw a first post from a new board member asking basic newbie questions framed in a manner that would suggest someone NOT familiar with discussions had previous.

And then I see a second new board member (you) act as if you're an FEB and basically ridicule this person for no other reason than because you probably get off on being an ass. This is not a smart move. You lose credibility before you really even gain it. Flaming newbies without provocation isn't cool.

If you felt it was a stupid question, don't answer it. If you think it's someone pimping for a book, don't answer it either. There's a couple of people on the board pimping systems. Ignore those posts. If you're going to try to start crap, don't do it over something like this. In other words, leave the newbies alone until they've earned the flame you send their way. Kind of like you just did.

I smell a sock puppet.

[jacklantern]

I'm not pimping for a book. They were honest questions I had, and I thought that someone on this board might be able to answer them. I searched elsewhere, and on this site, and couldn't find the answer.

Thanks Heidilady - I appreciate your help. As for GoutHurtsMyToes, get a life.

[syndeis]

A man isn't a fool because of what he doesn't know, but because what he knows is true that isn't so.

[llbean]

Hi Jack Lantern,

For this year's Ky Derby, which horses have the X Chromosomes of War Admiral or Mahmoud? I've been unable to locate this info.

The only problem I have with this question is that it perpetuates the view that Chromosomes from that long ago are still intact in the Thoroughbreds of Today (which I consider highly unlikely).

It is indeed highly probable that parts of War Admiral's X live on as parts of the Xs of today, but nonetheless the process of recombination will have led to Smarty Jones (for instance) having an X Chromsome which is 20% (or whatever) Ancestor A's X, 30% (or whatever) Ancestor B's X, etc.

Still, perhaps there could be a relationship between a horse having War Admiral or Mahmoud in a X Passing Position and doing good in the Derby. I'd just need to see some good evidence of it and it's worth noting that proponents of the theory have lost some credibility with me on account of their perpetuating the fiction that X Chromsomes from so long ago normally survive intact into the modern day.

The Male Line Passed Y Chromosome (or the main body of it, anyway) and Female Line Passed Mitochondrial DNA are not recombined but the X is. However, it is recombined less often than most other Chromosomes on account of it not getting recombined in the production of Sperm due to the Sperm Producing Sex lacking another copy of the X (with non-sexual chromosomes recombination occurs in both Sperms and Eggs).

Also, as you seek to improve your understanding, don't ignore the many clever people on this forum with systems such as Bill Lathrop and his Conduit Mare Profile, George Smith and his Genetic Strength Value, and my Ventura GeoScore. You may eventually come to the conclustion that their systems are invalid and/or somewhat flawed but in the process you'll have learned some things.

-Michael

[pistol]

[quote="jacklantern"] I searched elsewhere, and on this site, and couldn't find the answer.

quote]

If you made it this far then why couldn't you find it? This is not a difficult site to look up horses. Learn how to fish.

[LaTroienne]

Derby hopeful Nob Hill Delite is out of an Exclusive native mare (by RaN).

Sharp Humor's dam is descended from RaN.

[stancaris]

Here are the horses in this years Derby who have War admiral or Mahmoud in the X passing position:
Point Determined, Bro Derek, AP Warrior, Barbaro, Sweetsaint, Sinister Minister, Sharp Humor, Storm Treasure, Lawyer Ron, Showing Up, Keyed Entry and Bluegrass Cat. More than 1/2 the field.