Half-sister to Artie Schiller

[radrider]

I saw this mare on thehorse.com website for free thoroughbreds.
If you go to this website you can see her
http://13thoroughbreds.weebly.com/index.html
She is by Ferdinand out of Hidden Light who gave birth to Artie Schiller.
Her registered name is Hidden Dark.
She looks like a nice older mare and would probably make someone a nice companion horse or broodmare in her last couple of years. Just wanted to let everyone know.

[st. louis kid]

Thanks for the notice. However, I inquired about Hidden Dark, who I think would be great to breed, don't feel like she was really given a chance with top sires that a daughter of Hidden Light deserved.
The response I got is one that really irks me. She is only available as a pleasure horse or companion horse. So basically, please come pick her up, pay to transport, we can't afford to feed her or care for her anymore because we lost our funding, so you do all that at your farm. But we still get to tell you what you can or can't do with your new horse.
If you can no longer take care of a horse and have to give it away in order for it to be able to survive, it seems to me you have kind of lost your credibility as far as making decisions on the welfare of the horse.
Not to many in the horse world.

[Homewrecker]

St Louis Kid,

You apparently missed the point. The horses listed on the 13thoroughbreds site are being placed with contracts to ensure that they go to good retirement homes. These are adoption horses, not horses that are being given away so that they will go to people who merely want to profit from them. Most have already served the racing industry, the breeding industry and have given back to other horses by being part of a research herd. They've done enough. They don't have to continue to be bred. As for those trying to place these horses, it looks to me like they are being very responsible and working to find good safe homes. Who said they can't afford to feed them anymore or can't care for them? The horses look great.

And nobody has asked you to take on Hidden Dark or any of the other horses offered. You are upset that you are not being permitted to take this mare to profit from her. Sorry, it sounds like sour grapes to me. There are many of us in the industry who would gladly take in exracers or horses coming out of the breeding population when they need a safe spot to land. I have several and I am happy to provide for them for as long as they need me. And no, I didn't breed them or race them. I just wanted to help them. I know that there are others out there who feel the same way.

Sorry that you are angry that you can't get a free broodmare, one that you wouldn't be able to afford otherwise, but looks to me like she's already put in her time. Keep looking.

[Crystal]

Homewrecker, just to weigh in for the opposite side. This mare has a quality pedigree and she is not in production.. which is totally fine, maybe she wasn't Mommy material..But so many poorly conformed, underachieving, unhealthy mares with little to no pedigree are repeatedly bred with the idea of someone profiting from them or their foals. It's the same in every breeding business. But the JC doesn't govern over who can and cannot be bred.
So yes, I applaud these people for trying to keep this mares safety as #1, but there are always people outthere who have a quality filly or mare right in their back yard and just don't know it.

[Homewrecker]

I understand that Crystal and your point is a valid one. There are far too many people breeding horses that should not be bred. But just because a horse is well bred doesn't mean it should be adding to the current gene pool once it has proven that it doesn't throw horses that will add to the breed. Just my opinion. As far as Hidden Dark is concerned, if you look at her produce record, she has produced only four foals. Two of them made it to the races. One ended up running for a tag of, I think $2500 at Charlestown and disappeared. The other ended up running as a claimer in Illinois. Not a stellar record as a broodmare. It happens. This mare was donated for a reason. She has fertility issues as well. She is 19 and at the age where she could easily rupture a uterine artery foaling. She has spent the past few years in a research herd where she has been well treated but where she has been doing her part for the industry and for other horses. She has done enough. She's earned her retirement.

You know there are many well bred horses that go on to produce offspring that can't run. If this mare was even 5 years younger maybe it'd be a different story and worth taking a chance. But if you've ever watched a mare bleed out and die after foaling you might feel differently. It is a heartbreaking thing not only for the mare but for the foal left behind. I think they've made exactly the right choice for Hidden Dark and for the other mares here. And you're forgetting one thing. These are not mares that anyone is buying.

[BargainBlueblood]

I understand a sales contract in which the current owner has the right of first refusal should the buyer decide to sell the mare, or decide the mare will not work for them, but to summarily decide the mare cannot in any way be bred ever again, limits her ability to be useful, and therefore limits her chances of finding a safe, happy home, particularly in a market where free mares abound. I think the VA folks might be wise to have a slightly more open mind as to what these mares are used for, especially since the mare in question produced a foal for them in the last couple years. Who are they to get a recent foal from her, then tell others they're not allowed the same opportunity?

[cng]

It really doesn't matter what her pedigree is, if you can't breed her. It is the height of ignorance to tout that she is a 1/2 to Artie Schiller if all you can do is feed her.

[st. louis kid]

Exactly Michael. And free? try $10 to $15 a day to take care of a mare like this. You can't breed a 19 year old mare? Lanes End, Darley, Three Chimneys, etc. (this will be news to them)
If any mare should be bred? By a Ky. Derby winner out of one of the best racemares of the last 25 years, probably is adding to your cherished gene pool.
Exactly how many thoroughbred horses have been bred in the last 50 years that profit was not the motivation, as though that were a bad thing.
You don't want to breed the horse, ok, retire her and take care of her yourself.
When someone puts up a child for adoption, I don't think they get to determine what college they go to in the future.
Horses need to be placed soon because we lost our funding, that is asking me to take the horse in.
There has never been a horse I raced or bred that did not live out there life in a positive way. It does offend me, it is like some horse folks assume that you won't.

[Sysonby]

It's arrogant to be sure. ("I want out from under the bills but let me tell you how you can spend your money on her.")

But the truth is it's a buyers market out there and I don't doubt that there are fewer and fewer that will spring for these contracts especially if the organization is a PITA about the strings. So its hard to get too upset about them (other than the implication that us evil breeders can't be trusted which I guess would apply to me ) since it's a self limiting situation.

[pokeyman]

So, what would you guys do with her if she comes up barren?

Are you willing to give her a forever home and support her for the rest of her non-productive (breeding wise) life if she can't have foals for you?

As you know, it is hard to give a horse away to a good home that cannot be used for riding or breeding. So, if you think you will just be able to give her away to a good home than I wouldn't bet on it. The place where she is sounds like they are doing right by her by trying to find a forever home as a companion.

As long as by "taking a shot at putting her with a good stallion" means you will support her for the rest of her life if or when she comes up barren than go for it.

Thus, that is the point.

[Sysonby]

So, what would you guys do with her if she comes up barren?

Are you willing to give her a forever home and support her for the rest of her non-productive (breeding wise) life if she can't have foals for you?

As you know, it is hard to give a horse away to a good home that cannot be used for riding or breeding. So, if you think you will just be able to give her away to a good home than I wouldn't bet on it. The place where she is sounds like they are doing right by her by trying to find a forever home as a companion.

As long as by "taking a shot at putting her with a good stallion" means you will support her for the rest of her life if or when she comes up barren than go for it.

Thus, that is the point.

Possibly...there are people out there who don't wear their sainthood on their sleeve. Some are even (gasp!) breeders. I personally know people who have retired old broodies not for Internet attagirls and boys but because it was the right thing to do. But they are not on the Net telling us every day so I guess it doesn't exist.

I also personally know of people(yes a multiple) who used to post on the Internet stumping for rescues whose own personal horses had to be rescued from them or were relinquished in very bad shape. And no I'm not talking about Gerry.

They certainly said all of the right things in cyberland but talk is cheap isn't it? They were apparently in it for the rah rah saves and not the horses. Then when they get the animals home and no one is congratulating them anymore for paying vet, feed and board bills--well, that went by the wayside. What's that expression about doing the right thing when no one is looking?

So color me a little jaded when a rescue doesn't want to feed the horses but wants to dictate what can be done with them with Other People's Money. Great gig if you can get it--and I understand why they want it--but they could just as easily lease the horse out and never give up ownership that way and in the meantime they might find a nice temporary situation. Now it won't play politically for their supporters who hate breeders but it could be done.

[BargainBlueblood]

I think the other reason that folks find this situation a little off-putting is that the mare in question, Hidden Dark, has a registered 2006 Ball's Bluff filly bred by Virginia Tech Foundation Inc. So somehow it's okay if they try to get a foal from her despite her reproductive issues, but no one else is allowed to? Don't get me wrong...I think it's great these folks are working hard to make sure their mares get placed in good, safe homes. They even state in the ad that "All will be placed with an agreement for their protection." That makes good sense to me. And I give them credit for taking precautions and looking out for the mare's best interest. But I think it's short-sighted to assume that just because someone might buy her with the intent of having her covered in 2009 and trying to get a 2010 foal, that said person would not take as good or better care of the mare than someone who would buy her as a companion animal. I guess that's the part that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[madelyn]

This issue always gets me a bit hot under the collar. I think they should be stuck with that mare until the day she dies of old age or whatever.

All these so-called rescues that then try to get some sucker to pay a big fee to "adopt" a horse and accept that it is not a sale and there are strings to China should be called out for what they are, charlatans, and then just shut down. We need them like a hole in the head. As they tirelessly inform the planet while begging for money, there are just so many UNWANTED horses.. WORTHLESS Abandoned horses, that it creates a perception that horses should always be free or cheap. I deeply and sincerely believe that all those folks do FAR more harm than good.

In my opinion, they advertised her as "half sister to Artie Schiller" in case there is some ignorant Artie FAN out there who just has to have his half sister standing in a pasture as a curiousity to show to friends. This type of person might have absolutely no idea of horse care. The horse goes unwormed, feet never trimmed, and expected to exist on pasture and rainwater or, worse, a pond. The horse ends up getting "rescued" again and the cycle continues.

[Sylvie Hebert]

Bravo Madelyn,well said.

[Karie]

I agree.. Madelyn well said !!