For Jorge Magistrate

[xfactor fan]

Jorge,

Here's an photo of Magistrate, a son of Hastings --check out the white face.



http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i ... 1242976924

[Jorge]

Dear xfactor fan,

A very good find! Thank you so much for discovering this quite interesting sabino sire. Great!

As per tracing his progeny and lineage, found that Magistrate is
the eighth broodmare sire of the following pair of 21st. century fillies:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/go+abby+go
http://www.pedigreequery.com/jo+jo+joeanna

Thanks again. Hmmm, interesting site.

All the Best,

[xfactor fan]

The Sporthorse data base is great. Wonderful tools for pedigree researchers, I like the sireline/damline features, and the fact that they have the option to post multiple photos. Just ignore the occasional greyhound reference.

It doesn't have the huge numbers of TB's that this site has, but horses that you are investigating can be added.

On another note, I've been looking at Secretariat, and wonder where his white markings came from. Have you got a theory?

[Jorge]

Prince John (1953) ---another interesting thrower of color--- and Secretariat (1970), both are sharing ancestor, Prince Rose (1928). Although I cannot prove it, I suspect on Princequillo/Prince Rose.
Alas Princequillo was not that colorful, otherwise it would be a pop-up fly to the pitcher instead of an asterisk proposition.

[reedhill]

They come from:

THE TETRACH
MUMTAZ BEGUM
ROI HERODE

[xfactor fan]

Sabino markings are carried on equine chromosome 3, as is base coat color. Secretariat is red/red (ee in gene geek speak) so one of his chromosome #3 had to have the sabino markings. Discovery didn't have high white legs, so my guess is that it came from the bottom side of the pedigree.

The Princequillo line is solid bay for several generations.

White Eagle seems to have been a bright red with one high rear stocking. Maybe a blaze.

White Eagle's sire Gallinule had two high rear stockings, one low in the front and a wide blaze, also a chestnut. So it might come from that far back in the pedigree.

[Matchemforever]

Re: Hastings

Take a look at his sire, Spendthrift:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=573188

Then look at his Spendthrift's dam side with Lexington, etc.

Interesting.

Secretariat:

Hamburg in the Miss Disco pedigree, although that's pretty far back. I've seen another picture of him and I think he has a pretty good blaze too:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=232389

I think some time back I noticed how much Secretariat seemed to look like Hamburg, especially as he got older.

Makes you wonder about those genes that far back and maybe how they sometimes carry through?

OK, I have got to stop....

Here's one for you re: Secretariat. Take a look at Gallinule, sire of White Eagle:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=195565

Especially that right front white. Did note his left front looks like a pretty low heel.....

[xfactor fan]

The problem with the white coming via Miss Disco, is that she got one of Discovery's chromosomes with the red basecoat. If Discovery carried the sabino gene to that extent, he should have shown some degree of white. And yes, there is a wide range of expression, but still, given the degree of Secretariat's white, my guess is that the sabino didn't come down from this line.

Secretariat does look like Hamburg in body type.

Gallinule has the same pattern of white, in the same places. Now the trick is to trace that line down to Somethingroyal, and see if all the generations between Gallinule and Secretariat carried a red base coat.

Anyone out there have a photo of Caruso? Or any of the other horses on the bottom side of Secretariat's pedigree?

[reedhill]

They come from:

THE TETRACH
MUMTAZ BEGUM
ROI HERODE

The sabino and white foals are coming from genetics sometimes 8 to 15 generations back. Bay or chestnut doesn't matter, neither does the amount of white showing on a horse. Actually I have found in my short time breeding them 75% or more of the mares who have had sabino or white foals have been solid mares. I will be breeding a grey mare at some point as long as both parents aren't grey, so no chance of homozygus offspring, as long as they have a good "dose" of sabino and white genetics behind them. Those horses seem to be many of the times greys or blacks. The 3 above horses are very commenly seen in pedigrees of the colored, along with many others.

[reedhill]

If you could find a photo of Caruso........I'd bet he had some Bend Or spots somewhere on him, or at least small roaned areas. He has 2 doses of BEND OR in his first 5 generations on both the damside and sire side, nice and close up!

[xfactor fan]

Reedhill,

I'd be willing to bet the the next round of genetic testing is going to find the Airdrie Apache carries yet another version of Dominant White. So you may very well being dealing with DW, not maximum sabino.

Folks over at the Equine color forum are of the opinion that SB1 doesn't exist in the TB gene pool. Have you got an opinion on this? Since you actually have one, and are breeding, figure you have a better notion than most.

Caruso is proving illusive, have looked in all the regular spots and haven't been able to turn up any sort of photos. Did Secretariat have any Bend Or spots?

Nice website, and great looking horses.

[RiddleMeThis]

Folks over at the Equine color forum are of the opinion that SB1 doesn't exist in the TB gene pool. Have you got an opinion on this? Since you actually have one, and are breeding, figure you have a better notion than most.

Not who you were asking BUT UC Davis has yet to have a TB test positive for SB1.

I'd love to find one though, so if you here of any being tested for it I would love to see them.

For reference here are some horse who are positive for SB1 (MFTs)






(All of the above horses are heterozygous. This is their sire who is homozygous)

[reedhill]

Reedhill,

I'd be willing to bet the the next round of genetic testing is going to find the Airdrie Apache carries yet another version of Dominant White. So you may very well being dealing with DW, not maximum sabino.

I don't know it's funny. When I hear the word dominent white, I think of every foal coming out with more than average white markings. If that was the case with Allamystique, how have I had bays with a big star and a sock or stocking and that's it? At the time I bought Mystique I asked UC Davis, how could he be SB1 negative showing all this white. They said there were 6 to 7 more types of sabinos out there, but they had no testing for them yet. It makes me wonder if the current KIT genetics is what they were working on at that time? It's interesting they aren't calling them SB2,3,4,5,6,7........They sure have enough root bulbs from our farm, they could test all they wanted to.

Folks over at the Equine color forum are of the opinion that SB1 doesn't exist in the TB gene pool. Have you got an opinion on this? Since you actually have one, and are breeding, figure you have a better notion than most.

I swear I have seen one TB listed as positive for SB1 online, but for the life of me, can't remember where. I just remember thinking to myself, "wow there's ONE TB that is positive" but haven't seen any since. I ask, if my spotted up foals are considered sabino, and to me they look very different than your ordinary APHA overo's, why does APHA register them overo's, why don't they add sabino to their pattern list? When I think of overo, I think of frame or splash.

Caruso is proving illusive, have looked in all the regular spots and haven't been able to turn up any sort of photos. Did Secretariat have any Bend Or spots?

Not that I could see, but never met him up close. His white looks clean cut with clean edges. He had the genetics to pass them on to his Get though.

This is off the subject, but I have a palomino and white sabino APHA colt out of Allamystique and a cremello tovero APHA mare at home. When he was born he had a medicine hat, palomino speckled mane, palomino specking on his neck and what looked to be splashed palomino down his back and croup, but those areas are solid palomino. Ashe has shedded off, he is bizarre looking. He has thousands of black skin pigmentations all over his body, his penis looks like it is covered in black ticks.......LOL it's not though, looks just like black poka dots.........he has a partial blue eye on the right upper side. I actually think he is going to be neat to DNA. He looks like a splashed overo but is a heavy sabino also. Whats even crazier is the black skin spots have white hair over them and palomino, you can see them straight through both hair colors. http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-169219

Nice website, and great looking horses.

Many Thank you's! I will have the pleasure, NOT, of rebuilding another website, as geocities has decided to stop offering free web hosting, as of this summer....."oh goody" can hardly wait! LOL

[RiddleMeThis]

why does APHA register them overo's, why don't they add sabino to their pattern list? When I think of overo, I think of frame or splash.

Because they are idiots. Dont even get me started on their, or AQHAs, color/pattern mess ups.

Overo just means "not tobiano" and untill they have tests for ALL sabinos and (imo) ALL splashes and any other "patterning" genes they are just going to keep lumping them under overo and even THEN its doubtful.

They wont register a horse that tests positive for Frame Overo if it doesnt have enough body white...so...

[xfactor fan]

Here's my take on the whole Dominant White thing.

DW has got to be the most miss named gene since Silver Dapple.

DW only exists in the heterozygous form. One copy per customer, two copies = embryo lethal. 50% chance of getting the DW gene per foal.

DW has a wide range of expression, like the roany coat of Puchilingui, to the pure white horses, and everything inbetween.

DW is part of the KIT gene, like sabino in all it's forms. I suspect a horse like Puchilingui, with expression on the minimal side has DW5, and on his other chromosome 3 , minimal sabino expression, or sabino depression.


Sato, got the DW5 from Puchilingui, and Springtime Girls #3 chromosome with some type of sabino so he got white body markings, but also not in the maximal form.

Color sporthorse breeders like to double up on color genes to increase the chance of getting a "colorful" foal. Which seems to be a very sensible approach. Lots of the solid mates seem to have a high level of sabino expression--high whites--and when crossed with a DW mate the chances of the DW + High Sabino chromosomes meeting increases.

So lets say there is a roany DW, who has one chromosome 3 with DW + sb (minimal expression sabino) the other chromosome 3 is w + sb (no DW, and minimal expression of sabino)

Mated with a high white sabino who is w (solid) +SB (maximal expression sabino) and w + sb on the other chromosome.

There are four possible combinations

DW + sb Minimal expression DW
w +sb

w + sb solid
w + sb


DW + sb Maximum expression DW
w + SB

w + sb
w + SB High white Sabino


So there is a 1:4 chance of getting a solid, and the rest have some color. Add cream to the mix, and the chances of getting a plain solid goes down to 1:8

In your case with Allamystique, do you know if Ms Dubious had high white?

For what it is worth, I've been working on a conformation inheritance study, and have included a couple of "color" TB families, including Puchilingui and Airdrie Apache, so have been looking at family trees and offspring for this, but as often happens, once the data was collected other patterns jumped out.

I'd like to include your horses too, if that's alright.