Copper (1901)

[steward]

I'm not a regular on the color forum. I ran across a photo of the 1904 American Derby post parade. I consulted the Morning Telegraph chart for the race and it listed the horse in the second post position as a "ch. or gr. colt", which seems odd. Copper: Montana x Finalis, owner L. O. Wagner.

[Jorge]

Hi Stewart,

Thank you, thank you so much for bringing up this quite interesting case.

Wow, I really hope there wasn’t any printing error on the original publication for this horse really looks like a regular gray to me. If his parents weren’t gray then we just struck gold here!

As for the immediate pedigree of this horse, only one Montana entire horse perfectly fits here based on contemporariness and that is the 1888 model. So, upper half completely solved here! See his data:

Pedigree of Montana (1888): http://www.pedigreequery.com/montana
His progeny: http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/montana

As for the bottom half of Copper’s pedigree…..hmmm…… there is no trace on the Thoroughbred database here or elsewhere of a mare named Fidalis. Not even in the “Allbreed Database” section of this site, where on many occasions one finds valuable, albeit non-approved information.

Let’s see if Lucy or any other collaborator can assist us here.

Again, thank you very much.

All the Best,

[Jorge]

Apropos this topic. Is this the same race?

http://www.zazzle.com/chicago_il_horse_ ... 7321507450

[Jorge]

Who knows if Copper was a full brother to the also gray talented mare named Motley. Note that Motley's good juvenile achievements perfectly precedes the time period when the owner of Motley's dam may have been studying options for her 1901 covering selection. A decision that may have brought us Copper. Note that if Copper ran in the 1904 edition of the American Derby it meant he also had talent. Just as his sister?

Another angle: note that Montana was bred to only a small number of mares. http://www.pedigreequery.com/motley

[Jorge]

One would have to search if Ella Gregg (alleged dam of Copper) was ever the subject of a name change, namely, Finalis.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/ella+gregg

[Jorge]

Thanks to a valuable collaborator, a new valuable piece of evidence has just appeared.

In the American Stud Book of 1898. a Finalis is listed as an offspring produced from the gray mare Lizzie Lucas. She was an 1895 chestnut filly by Tyrant (chestnut). She may have been listed as "chestnut", but it is possible that she turned out grey after registration due to the color of her dam. Well this is very good head start for some of you I guess. Lets see what else appears.

[steward]

Copper didn't run in the first half of 1905. I don't have a chart book for the second half.

He ran in 1906, however. He still carried the odd designation "ch or gr." Sadly, he was no longer a colt but a gelding. And was owned by Pierre Lorillard.

BTW, he finished in the middle of a large field. Toward the rear was Elwood, winner of the KD the month before.

[aethervox]

Per "Great dispersal sale of the entire world-renowned Rancho del Paso" p 139 http://books.google.com/books?id=N00CAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA139#v=onepage&q=&f=false Finalis was grey with no markings.

More info: Finalis is a half sister to the winner Ella Gregg, dam of Motley, a two-year-old winner of three races in 1899, and at three at 1 mile in 1:39 4-5; the Glen Cove Handicap, 1 1-16 miles, from David Garrick, Sidney Lucas, etc., and at the same distance from a field of ten. She also finished third in the Gazelle and Ladies' Stakes, and placed in other races, and was a stake winner in 1901. Ella Gregg is also the dam of Gray Plume, two years old in 1904 and also a winner in 1905.

Finalis is also a half sister to Cerise, dam of the great race horse Morello, who won 14 races at two years old, including the Futurity. At three he won 10 races, including the Drexel Stakes, Dearborn Handicap, 1 1/8 miles, 128 lbs. up in 1:53 3/4 from ten others; Wheeler Handicap, 1 1/4 miles, in 2:05, 117 Ibs. up, etc., winning during two years $81,750. His early death cut short what promised a great career in the stud.

Cerise also foaled the winners Parthian, Orton, Wild Cherry and Cherry Wild.

Lizzie Lucas [her dam] was a grand stake winner, and produced the good winners Lytton, Cyclops, Cambyses, Cleofas and Chimera, dam of Salvation, Star Chime, Sardou, Fagan (35 wins), Bobolink and Salmera. From Lizzie Lucas also came Veva, dam of Lottie A., Ferocious, Tragedian, Cheiro, Delhi (winner of $119,287) and Ventnor, dam of Santa Ventura, 11 wins.

Barren in 1905. Bred to imp. Royal Flush III April 13.

[Jorge]

In synthesis, Copper inherited his coat color from his gray dam. That means that he was a normal gray rather than a "stained white".

http://www.pedigreequery.com/copper2

Thank you so much for helping solve this query.

[freshman]

Off topic, but the image of all the horses parading w/o ponys reminded me of how much I hate the American tradition to put a pony on nearly 100% of the time. How much better it is be able to observe the horses's walk and natural movement under saddle unfettered by being snubbed to another horse, usually a fat slow one. The result is all prancing and fighting, shows nothing of the horse's real motion.