No wonder the white mare Patchen Beauty inherited the sabino gene (or pattern) from both parents. Just take a look at the photo of her sire Hatchet Man (1971). Haven't seen this recently posted photo before:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/hatchet+man
Hatchet Man sire of Patchen Beauty
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Patchen Beauty: http://www.pedigreequery.com/patchen+beauty
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RiddleMeThis
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Patchen Beauty is NOT sabino. She is dominant white, and it most likely came through her dam Precious Beauty who is also "white."
(will take you to google books, with a picture of Precious Beauty.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=RcrL71 ... ed&f=false
(will take you to google books, with a picture of Precious Beauty.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=RcrL71 ... ed&f=false
As far as I have searched, up to this day, the topic is still under strong debate because there are solid facts on both camps, albeit the "W" gene has gained additional momentum. For that reason I don't feel it is completely safe at this stage to be cathegoric. This topic is practically under scrutiny these days.
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accphotography
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I have yet to see an argument for Patchen Beauty being sabino. Her production virtually rules it out. Not to mention, that they DID prove that she is dominant white. There is zero proof that she is sabino and lots of evidence against it.
Have you read the dominant white papers Jorge?
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/inf ... 07474CAA3F
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0
http://duncentralstation.com/PDF/KITGen ... Castle.pdf
The Thoroughbred stallion (D in the first illustration) in the first article is a tested and proven dominant white and his name is... The White Fox. He is a son of Patchen Beauty.
The evidence is irrefutable.
ACC
Have you read the dominant white papers Jorge?
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/inf ... 07474CAA3F
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0
http://duncentralstation.com/PDF/KITGen ... Castle.pdf
The Thoroughbred stallion (D in the first illustration) in the first article is a tested and proven dominant white and his name is... The White Fox. He is a son of Patchen Beauty.
The evidence is irrefutable.
ACC
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RiddleMeThis
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So they have found a sabino gene in Thoroughbreds? Like an actual gene not just "this horse is a sabino on looks." Because they HAVE found a Dominant White mutation in thoroughbreds in this exact line. Mutation and all. Not just guesses and hunches. I personally think that a mutation being found is a little more than just "solid facts" but rather irrefutable facts.Jorge wrote:As far as I have searched, up to this day, the topic is still under strong debate because there are solid facts on both camps, albeit the "W" gene has gained additional momentum.
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xfactor fan
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Uhmmm.
It is possible that you guys are right. According to the research DW is on equine chromosome #3. It is a embryonic lethal when doubled. So all DW horses can carry only one copy. That leaves the other #3 chromosome that could carry something else. Like the the version of sabino that is white feet and a blaze.
I don't think that any of the Patchen white horses are max. sabino. They a most likely to be Domininat white in the maximum expression.
It is possible that you guys are right. According to the research DW is on equine chromosome #3. It is a embryonic lethal when doubled. So all DW horses can carry only one copy. That leaves the other #3 chromosome that could carry something else. Like the the version of sabino that is white feet and a blaze.
I don't think that any of the Patchen white horses are max. sabino. They a most likely to be Domininat white in the maximum expression.
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accphotography
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xfactor fan wrote:Uhmmm.
It is possible that you guys are right. According to the research DW is on equine chromosome #3. It is a embryonic lethal when doubled. So all DW horses can carry only one copy. That leaves the other #3 chromosome that could carry something else. Like the the version of sabino that is white feet and a blaze.
I don't think that any of the Patchen white horses are max. sabino. They a most likely to be Domininat white in the maximum expression.
Actually it doesn't quite work that way. Each gene in the KIT region of chromosome #3 has two alleles. Dominant white mutations can not be homozygous so they will either be 'ww' or 'Ww'. There wouldn't be another allele in there, say like 'WSB1'. Sabino1 is also in KIT and it's a separate mutation so it has it's own alleles separate from DW. Same with roan and tobiano which are also both on KIT.
In essence you could have a horse with a dominant allele of each of the KIT mutation genes. IE: 'Ee TOto Rr Ww SB1sb1'. Or you could even have homozygotes: 'EE TOTO Rr Ww SB1SB1'.
ACC
ACC I just want to clarify something because you have me confused. You say that a dominant white can not be homozgous but then you state they have to be either ww or Ww. If I remember correctly ww is a recessive homozygous.
So my other question for everyone is this. I'm assuming dominant white is a recessive trait? If it is they a dominant white would have to be ww in order for that genotype to be expressed. If they are Ww then that would just mean they are a carrier and therefor would not express the dominant white genotype. So i guess my question is that dw is recessive or dominant gene?
So my other question for everyone is this. I'm assuming dominant white is a recessive trait? If it is they a dominant white would have to be ww in order for that genotype to be expressed. If they are Ww then that would just mean they are a carrier and therefor would not express the dominant white genotype. So i guess my question is that dw is recessive or dominant gene?
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accphotography
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Squishy wrote:ACC I just want to clarify something because you have me confused. You say that a dominant white can not be homozgous but then you state they have to be either ww or Ww. If I remember correctly ww is a recessive homozygous.
So my other question for everyone is this. I'm assuming dominant white is a recessive trait? If it is they a dominant white would have to be ww in order for that genotype to be expressed. If they are Ww then that would just mean they are a carrier and therefor would not express the dominant white genotype. So i guess my question is that dw is recessive or dominant gene?
Dominant white is a simple dominant.
Dominant white CAN be homozygous both 'ww' (which is what MOST horses in the world are) and 'WW'. However the 'WW' foals are lost very early in utero as complete loss of function of the KIT gene is incompatible with life.
'ww': Not a carrier, no expression.
'Ww': Carrier, full expression.
'WW': Homozygous carrier, full expression, lost in utero.
ACC
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xfactor fan
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Perhaps I expressed it badly.
A solid white TB from a line of White TB's is likely to be Dominant White. And in fact the Patchen Beauty line has been clearly identified as DW.
Any living DW white horse carries only one copy of the DW, two are a embryonic lethal. So the other chromosome that is w, or non-DW could carry anything else. All that is known for sure is that the other chromosome 3 does not carry Dominant white.
So along with w (non-DW) there could be a version of sabino on the other chromosome.
Anyone have a photo of Skip the Hatchet? This is the one Patchen Beauty foal that didn't get the DW chromosome. If he's a bay with a blaze and white stockings like Hatchet Man, a case could be made for Patchen Beauty carrying the DW on one Chromosome, and the version of sabino that she got from her sire Hatchet Man on her other chromosome.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/skip+the+hatchet
And I'm not arguing that any of the Patchen horses are max sabino. Which has not been proven to exist in TB's.
A solid white TB from a line of White TB's is likely to be Dominant White. And in fact the Patchen Beauty line has been clearly identified as DW.
Any living DW white horse carries only one copy of the DW, two are a embryonic lethal. So the other chromosome that is w, or non-DW could carry anything else. All that is known for sure is that the other chromosome 3 does not carry Dominant white.
So along with w (non-DW) there could be a version of sabino on the other chromosome.
Anyone have a photo of Skip the Hatchet? This is the one Patchen Beauty foal that didn't get the DW chromosome. If he's a bay with a blaze and white stockings like Hatchet Man, a case could be made for Patchen Beauty carrying the DW on one Chromosome, and the version of sabino that she got from her sire Hatchet Man on her other chromosome.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/skip+the+hatchet
And I'm not arguing that any of the Patchen horses are max sabino. Which has not been proven to exist in TB's.
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accphotography
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Since the frame overo from the Colorworld Ranch horses comes from The Axe too, could it be that the gene had mutated for creating a frame overo?
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabs
Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabs
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xfactor fan
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No, I don't believe that a horse could be WW SB1 SB1, or at least not a TB, and not alive.
I suspect the problems is in the definition of sabino. I believe that there are multiple versions of sabino, ranging from SB1--maximum expression to minor expression as little as a blaze and a pointy stocking.
Lets assume for the sake of argument that Hatchet Man carries on his #3 chromosome a version of Sabino. He's also pretty clearly not Dominant White. Lets say that this sabino carrying #3 chromosomes gets passed on to Patchen Beauty.
Patchen Beauty clearly got one the #3 chromosome from her dam that carried the DW mutation.
So that would make Patchen Beauty
Base coat --DW--sb
Base coat --w----Sabino Hatchet Man
Any white markings Patchen Beauty might have are covered by the maximum expression of Dominant White. So until there is a test for something more than SB1, the only way to tell what version of sabino Patchen Beauty may or may not carry is to look at her offspring that don't carry her DW chromosome.
A good photo of Skip the Hatchet might give a answer to this question.
If you want to look at a good example of the inheritance of sabino take a look at sons of Northern Dancer.
The Northern Dancer sabino (which I believe is the Mahmoud sabino) is a blaze, high white socks behind, and a low white sock in front. Oh and almost all of these are black based. Northern Dancer sired a few chestnuts so he was clearly E (black) e(red). I strongly suspect that the sabino is carried on his Black based chromosome #3.
I suspect the problems is in the definition of sabino. I believe that there are multiple versions of sabino, ranging from SB1--maximum expression to minor expression as little as a blaze and a pointy stocking.
Lets assume for the sake of argument that Hatchet Man carries on his #3 chromosome a version of Sabino. He's also pretty clearly not Dominant White. Lets say that this sabino carrying #3 chromosomes gets passed on to Patchen Beauty.
Patchen Beauty clearly got one the #3 chromosome from her dam that carried the DW mutation.
So that would make Patchen Beauty
Base coat --DW--sb
Base coat --w----Sabino Hatchet Man
Any white markings Patchen Beauty might have are covered by the maximum expression of Dominant White. So until there is a test for something more than SB1, the only way to tell what version of sabino Patchen Beauty may or may not carry is to look at her offspring that don't carry her DW chromosome.
A good photo of Skip the Hatchet might give a answer to this question.
If you want to look at a good example of the inheritance of sabino take a look at sons of Northern Dancer.
The Northern Dancer sabino (which I believe is the Mahmoud sabino) is a blaze, high white socks behind, and a low white sock in front. Oh and almost all of these are black based. Northern Dancer sired a few chestnuts so he was clearly E (black) e(red). I strongly suspect that the sabino is carried on his Black based chromosome #3.
I have always perceived my role as nothing more than an avid observer standing on the balcony of curiosity, but I am not an authoritive connoisseur on genetypes or phenotypes. Just an enthusiast, yet it shows. People ask for personal opinions and they get that... personal opinions. My "searching" exercises are always limited to contact and consulting the authoritive scientific connoisseurs, but, to my great surprise, they always leave the door open for other possibilities. Even the world reknown ones.
The last time I consulted a source, the person expressed to me that right now there are is a good number of mutations being discovered. I understood by that opinion that this is a time for pause and re-examining many established dictums of the past. I am aware that the "W" gene is again gaining momentum as previously occurred. Perhaps it will prevail at the end, but since the sabino pattern (not undoubtely declared a gene yet ---as far as I know) is such a great fooler of people, it is safe not to be cathegorical against it. Thanks God Almighty I am just another enthusiasts among the crowd with a personal opinion.
The last time I consulted a source, the person expressed to me that right now there are is a good number of mutations being discovered. I understood by that opinion that this is a time for pause and re-examining many established dictums of the past. I am aware that the "W" gene is again gaining momentum as previously occurred. Perhaps it will prevail at the end, but since the sabino pattern (not undoubtely declared a gene yet ---as far as I know) is such a great fooler of people, it is safe not to be cathegorical against it. Thanks God Almighty I am just another enthusiasts among the crowd with a personal opinion.