White Cross wh c 1896 x Palestine - Black Girl x Khartoum

[Pan Zareta]

An interesting anecdote re. White Cross from 'Notes of the Turf', DRF 11 Apr 1896.

V.L. Kirkman of the Oak Hill Farm, has a suckling colt by Palestine--Black Girl, that is snow white all over with the exception of a couple of red spots on his ears and the top of his head. He is perfectly formed and is as hardy as any of the foals at the farm.

[xfactor fan]

Sounds like another case of Dominant White. Did this horse breed on?

[reedhill]

Yes, he was bred in our state of TN!
http://www.pedigreequery.com/white+cross
Maybe Jorge would know if he ever reproduced?

[Pan Zareta]

Did this horse breed on?

I've checked the ASB through vol. 18 and not found White Cross in 'Sires of Registered Foals', but there's always the possibility that he sired foals which weren't ASB-eligible.

Another, rather intriguing, anecdote from the 'West Australian' newspaper 27 Mar 1900:

From the 'Spirit of the Times' is taken the following account of a curious change which has taken place in the coat of a colt foaled in 1896 at a place near Nashville, Tenn. When foaled it was a perfectly white thoroughbred colt, and regarded as a freak, especially since its sire--Palestine--is a chestnut horse, while its dam--Black Girl--is a jet black mare. Mr. Kirkham had numerous opportunities to sell the colt at a good price, but did not do so. From the time the foal first saw the light up to last spring its coat was snow white, with the exception of its eyes, which were black; and the tips of its ears, which were red. The colt was registered under the name of White Cross and raced at the Nashville fall meeting a couple of times in his two-year-old form, but finished in each instance outside a place. White Cross has been gradually changing his colour since last February, and it is thought that by next February he will be as intensely black as he had been intensely white. Following the terrible cold spell, February 13, 1899, the colt has been turning black, but whether the severity of the weather is in any manner responsible for the change is not known. However, about that time black spots began to appear on his quarters, and these have been growing rapidly ever since. Other black spots have appeared on the neck and shoulders, and his ears have turned a dark brown. His tail, which was white, is fast turning to glossy black, and indications of a similar change are visible all over the body. A number of learned men have examined the colt, but not one of them has offered any explanation of the remarkable change now taking place in the colt's colour. White Corss has been in training since last May, and his best trials include a quarter in 0.25, a half in .052, and three-quarters in 1.18. He is about 16 hands high.

In the DRF report (05 May 1900) of the Oakdale Hunt Steeplechase, which White Cross won handily w/ his owner in the saddle, the horse's color is given as "gr", but he was entered ASB 7 as white, and the DRF record probably reflects the conclusion of track personnel. I've never known a grey or a white to change color in that fashion, but this is not my area of expertise...

[Jorge]

Enjoy:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 31,2496786

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... d-1/seq-4/

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... d-1/seq-4/

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=3 ... 343,612716

http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageview ... 0501%3A3.4

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=3 ... 33,1090938

[Jorge]

No, he didn't reproduce, at least officially. Another angle I would like to explore is that apparently he was shown at the Tennessee Centennial Exposition of 1896, but actually nothing appears about this.

[Derby Lyn]

Maybe he was similar to Allamystique with his spots. My previous white colt, Arctic Cielo, developed more black spots as he got older, but not nearly as many as Allamystique. The spot around his eye slowly spread all the way around, and I would notice more black on his back and hindquarters every season. I wonder if they are talking about his fur or his skin changing. Like a grey, Cielo seemed to have a color surprise every season, slight changes, like the color in his tail or the spots on his skin.

[Pan Zareta]

Maybe he was similar to Allamystique with his spots. My previous white colt, Arctic Cielo, developed more black spots as he got older, but not nearly as many as Allamystique.

Allamystique's photo on his entry in the db certainly fits the description of White Cross, 1900, in the 'West Australian'. I wonder if this could account for the color change mentioned in this thread. Maybe not, since the remarks pertain to grey, not white.

[reedhill]

Maybe they mistook them for the "flea-bitten" grey flecks...........
Or multiple Bend-Or spots?
Mystique also has multiple black hairy spots all over him and so do his bay base coat colts. Even our Appendix QH filly (Reed's Southern Belle) who now sports beautifully located black dots across and scattered about her rump and belly mixed in with the buckskin spekles and patches all over her top side, a very wild looking frosted black mane. Belle's base coat is buckskin, her dam was a palomino QH. http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-308832 scroll down to see her.

[xfactor fan]

Interesting about the color changes. Have you by any chance got photo documentation? Not doubting your word at all but documenting the changes might be useful down the line.

This is a wild speculation, but the changing color sure sounds like the action of LP or Appy roan. Do you know if any of the other DW strains have seen this color changing effect?

[Jorge]

I am interested in pinpointing his races as a juvenile. Thanks for any assistance.

Also, any help from Tennessee regarding any reference about him via the 1897 Centennial Exposition?

Thank in advance for any assistance.

[reedhill]

Interesting about the color changes. Have you by any chance got photo documentation? Not doubting your word at all but documenting the changes might be useful down the line.

This is a wild speculation, but the changing color sure sounds like the action of LP or Appy roan. Do you know if any of the other DW strains have seen this color changing effect?

Oh my goodness yes, and I know Dalene at PDF has watched this coloration happen. At a quick guess, I'd say only 10% of white foals come pure white with all pink skin and stay pure white with only pink skin. HELIODORIS was our first colt by Allamystique that stayed all white. http://www.pedigreequery.com/heliodoris The rest of our whites that had bay or chestnut base coats all "grew" black spotted skin pigmentations all over their bodies in different patterns. I'm literally talking about "pink" skin "changing skin color "pigmentation" to black, and just about over night it seemed at times. This is the norm, and thought everyone knew this.............I've always wondered what the scientific name for it was.......kind of like a tadpole MORPHS into a frog, pink skin can change into solid black spotted circles all different sizes and connected differently and sometimes not on every young horse into adulthood. I still think Allamystique gets more spots every year.

[reedhill]

I am interested in pinpointing his races as a juvenile. Thanks for any assistance.

Also, any help from Tennessee regarding any reference about him via the 1897 Centennial Exposition?

Thank in advance for any assistance.

I will try and dig something out Jorge, thank you for this much so far!

[xfactor fan]

Reedhill,

I strongly suspect that the folks doing research at the Appaloosa project would be very interested in this if they don't already know. I sure didn't, and have followed the research since the time the debate was about if the gene existed or not.

The basic theory that they are pursuing--if you aren't up on the genetics--forgive me if you know this already, is that the appy color pattern is a combination of two genes, Lp (the roany part) and a pattern gene(s) on a different chromosome.

LP is notorious for messing with base coat colors. Spots come and go, roaning is random, and there are all sorts of color shifts. I'm sure someone can dig up a link to the lovely leopard appy mare that looks like a red leopard, who is a genetically tested black based horse.

There is a lot of investigation on Lp horses that don't show all the characteristics usually associated with LP.

And yes, I know that the DW mutation is not the same as the Pattern mutation the Appaloosa Project folks are looking for, but there seem to be some similarities in how the color presents itself.

Interesting topic, thanks for posting.

[reedhill]

I do have several photos of skin color changes, I lwill have to put them on photo bucket some how and try and get them on here or a link.