Inbreeding versus Line Breeding question.

[reedhill]

In your opinion, is this inbreeding or line breeding?

In your opinion will this kind of breeding help or hurt the horse industry's opinion of colored TB breeding?

Please vote.

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-347817

[accphotography]

Kinda hard to say when I can't find the foal's pedigree anywhere.

[reedhill]

Great Point! Ok, my scanner is not working so I'm going to do this a different way.

This colts name is Preakness Of Gold

His sire is Pure White Gold

His dam is Ebony Gold Iris

Both the sire and dam of this colt, have sires, that are full brothers;

Billionair and Zillionair are both by Issue Of Gold and Queen Debonair.

[reedhill]

I called to get the opinion from the JC today on the breeding of this colt.
I spoke with a man that stated this is inbreeding and it is very strong inbreeding.

In my opinion the colt is one of the most beautifully colored TB foals I've seen and undoubtedly will offer a guaranteed dilute gene and a 50/50 chance of the sabino or DW gene............BUT other than him not being the type of TB I would consider for a stallion prospect, I feel badly the effects this inbreeding could have on the soundness of possible future offspring "assuming" this colt would be sold for a stallion prospect.

Would it not be just as easy to purchase a Glitter Please descendant mare or a Guaranteed Gold descendant mare to keep this from purposely happening? These days buyers are more and more aware of the effects of inbreeding and if the foal is to jump, do dressage, or race there is no way an educated buyer is going to chance a break down of their investment.

[accphotography]

0.03125% is the approximate inbreeding coefficient. Usually I'm not concerned about the coefficient until it's over 0.06% (there's a questions as to whether it will cause a reduction in performance but there is very little chance of a freak) and anything over 0.10% is where the real danger of a true "freak" comes in.

The biggest thing this cross has going for it is that the parents are NOT by the same horse. They are by full brothers. While one might think "well that's the same genetics", actually it's really not. There is a chance the two brothers inherited completely separate genes from their parents. What this does is effectively push the inbreeding factor back to THEIR sire and dam. What are the chances the foal will inherit the same gene(s) from the SAME horse from both parents. So I essentially throw out Billionair and Zillionair themselves and looks straight to Issue of Gold and Queen Debonair. Those are the horses one would have to be concerned about. However that brings it down to a 3S x 3D cross, which I would not bat an eyelash at, especially not at the same position in the pedigree. So when looking at it that way, I consider it perfectly safe line breeding (genetically). However I believe line breeding should have alot of thought put into it and be to improve and/or set the qualities of an exemplary animal... NOT doing it just for the sake of color. That is truly where the ethical issue comes in. Do I think it's going to hurt the breed? No. Do I think it's wise in THIS case with THESE ancestors...? No.

Here's the pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/preakness+of+gold

[reedhill]

I greatly appreciate the percentages. Interesting, but the JC also told me before I originally bought my 2 Milkie line colts 3 years ago, that inbreeding can cause a significant bone size decrease and density and they will have a greater chance of breaking a bone on the track. They should know, considering the horrible breakdown %'s OTT, they said inbreeding this closely is a risk most commercial breeders won't take. So some where in years past there must have been marked inbreeding like this that caused the JC to verbalize their opionion on, so people won't make the same mistakes that have hurt the breed in the past. I would think that would carry over for other horse sports as well. Inbreeding in other horse breeds can also cause a worsening of already existing genetic problems including creating animals with much smaller statures.

Does anyone here, know of successful racing TB horses from the last 20 to 30 years that were or are inbred?

[accphotography]

Well I still see a very large amount of 3x3 breeding. I also don't know why TJC would take that on to say themselves (period, but...) when it can be based on nothing but opinion as there is NOO such research to back the claim.

Inbreeding by itself does not automatically cause light bone. That is something that would happen with intense inbreeding and you start getting over 0.1% and 0.25% coefficients, but there are lots of deleterious things that can happen, not just bone density.

Here's the thing: If the first and only _____ Thoroughbred is light boned and you start inbreeding to him to get that "first" characteristics... you're also doubling up on the light bone.

I guarantee if you inbreed repeatedly to a HEAVY boned stallion you will end up with draft style bones eventually.

[color]

It has been sold to Trina in Canada:

http://norsirefarms.com/Preaknessgold.html

[Derby Lyn]

I believe this cross was only done to produce a certain color. I cannot see how doing this cross purely for color reasons will benefit the breed in any way. I know people say to breed the best to the best, but in this case the best are not even being bred together. I realize that GG is similar lines, but somewhere along the line he inherited the good gene, where this line you mention is lacking in areas. I would prefer a colt of this color if he were a GG x GP cross.

[ElPrado]

Asking the JC that question would make sense if the JC were being run by scientists specializing in inbreeding for color. It isn't. The JC looks in other directions, and isn't a scientific body. It is simply a registry that records bloodlines, not a group of geneticists.

[reedhill]

Asking the JC that question would make sense if the JC were being run by scientists specializing in inbreeding for color. It isn't. The JC looks in other directions, and isn't a scientific body. It is simply a registry that records bloodlines, not a group of geneticists.

The JC has been around for how long? Since it was founded in the 1750's.
I would think it would be well known by their specialty staff if inbreeding was accepted or looked badly upon. Considering the number of horses that are registered every year, the number that race, the ongoing treatment and research done by vets, and the independant research that goes into different surfaces to run on, feed and supplement companies..............with all this information available to all breeders, not just the JC, having all that working for the health and soundness of the Thoroughbred horse, not to mention other breeds, I seriously think the JC knows by now if they think inbreeding is popular, or if it causes major physical problems with future offspring.

[reedhill]

I fear for the buyer of the colt. I think they will have a hard time selling foals by him and will end up having to keep many of them. I give the owners and trainers in the horse industry way too much credit for being super cautious when purchasing a breeding, show, or racing prospect. Size does matter, and X-Rays do tell the truth. I wish them the best, but IMO they will be breeding sub standard TB's that hurt their own business.

[accphotography]

While I do believe the foal WAS bred for color and with nothing else in mind, I won't dismiss him solely because of that. I personally don't believe inbreeding of his extent will harm him in any way and I haven't seen recent enough photos of him to judge him solely on his own merit.

[reedhill]

I hear what you say ACC, he will probably be a small good looking colt on the outside, no doubt, but when buyers have current and future choices to make, there is going to be a large percentage of professionals and amateurs that will not buy into and desire "Get" from this inbreeding.

[accphotography]

I don't doubt that. Likely it will be MORE people breeding for color.

Maybe someday in about 20 years there will have been enough of these colors bred to have some truly exceptional animals that ALSO have color. I don't personally care for alot of Racey Remarque's offspring (just a personal opinion, things that don't suit MY taste), however if we want to keep frame in the breed we have to use them. Eventually (with responsible breed, which there s sadly not enough of) we can get the frame on great horses. It's the same with new breeds. There has to be some inbreeding and some subpar animals to get things going. It takes time to get it ALL right.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not defending this breeding as I already said I do agree with you about why it was done. I'm not even really defending the horse himself. I'm just stating my opinion on the general subject.