Thunder Puddles and Man o' War

StayOutFront · Postby **StayOutFront** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:43 pm

Someone mentioned that Thunder Puddles resembles his descendant, Man o' War. In looking at his pedigree, it seems Man o' War appears only through the dam's side.

I'd heard that Man o' War/Matchem descendants are becoming increasingly rare. Would that refer to male-line descendants only, such as the In Reality line? Or is it all-encompassing, and are mares descended from Man o' War becoming increasingly rare as well?

Thanks for any information!

Nessa · Postby **Nessa** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:09 am

I think you mean Thunder Puddles' ancestor Man o' War, and I believe the MoW's maleline and femaleline(through his daughters) descendants are rare. I think War Admiral has a few femalelines that descend from him. Maybe someone else can be more helpful.

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:58 pm

I don't know about female lines, but I wouldn't describe the number of Man O' War tail male descendants as being extremely small. There are quite a few sires out there, and I wouldn't expect the line to die out any time soon. The line isn't as rare as e.g. Hyperion, Domino, Gallant Man, Round Table etc.

Here are a few Man O' War sires that I can think of off the top of my head. Tiznow, Tizbud, Cee's Tizzy, Waquoit, Officer, Bertrando, Honour and Glory, Little Expectations (?sp), Captain Countdown, Louis Arthur, Bright Launch, Closing Argument...

StayOutFront · Postby **StayOutFront** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:02 pm

Nessa wrote:I think you mean Thunder Puddles' ancestor Man o' War,

Ooops, yep, of course I meant that. Duh.

Thanks, both of you, for your comments. I've just read several forums that mention MoW becoming more rare in pedigrees - but, geowarrior, those names make it sound as if the line is still going fairly strongly. I guess one can't believe everything they read in forums. Surprise!

Thanks again.

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:51 pm

And I missed Successful Appeal, Kelly Kip, Valid Expectations, Valid Trefair, Valid Belfast, B.L.'s Appeal, Binalong, Sand Ridge...

I'd say Secretariat's sireline is rarer now than that of Man 'O War.

Pan Zareta · Postby **Pan Zareta** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:10 pm

Man O' War is ubiquitous in back pedigree, mainly via his daus. & War Admiral. For example, in their 9 gen. peds., Bernardini has 10 x's of MoW, Barbaro 5, Invasor 3. All may have more x's than that. I just didn't look beyond 9 gens. Forty years from now the same will probably be true of Secretariat, tho' it's unlikely any one of his sons will loom as influential a conduit of his blood as War Admiral was of Man O' War's.

Fundamentally, the only constant that distinguishes between sirelines is Y chromosome DNA. Evidence to date suggests there's far less diversity in equine yDNA overall, not just in the TB, than in other species. I think we'll be VERY fortunate if enough diversity is eventually identified to distinguish between the three male TB founders at the yDNA level.

In other words, disappearance of the Godolphin or Byerley in 'tail male' *might* not mean the loss of any unique yDNA - but that doesn't mean it would be a good thing, imho. Man O' War via In Reality is the Godolphin's main contemporary conduit, but it's still possible to find non-MoW lines. Some of Saros' sons are around. Actually, it's the Byerley's line that's in greatest peril of extinction in tail male.

Fwiw, I think Thunder Puddles most closely resembles his grandsire, the elegant Prince John.

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:48 pm

Very interesting Pan. Isn't it interesting that although most crosses are through War Admiral and the M 'O W daughters, the tail male line is surviving principally through War Relic, another son of Man 'O War.

Pan Zareta · Postby **Pan Zareta** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:15 pm

War Relic didn't spend anywhere near as much 'quality time' with as many of La Troienne's daughters. :wink:

War Admiral exerts a great deal of his influence in combination with them. War Relic was sort of the 'poor man's' War Admiral, but doubling up on him produced 'sire of sires' In Reality, so he left his own emphatic stamp on the breed.

nythoroughbredvz · Postby **nythoroughbredvz** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:16 pm

with all of your oppinions of MoW and In Reality, what would your oppinions be on what lines would best fit my stallion Dr. Koch? i know he hasnt produced anything significant but he is what i have to work with!

http://www.pedigreequery.com/dr+koch

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:43 pm

Well, ny, I had a quick look at the database, and Dr. Koch's one decent money winner (no insult intended, I realize he has had limited opportunity) there shows sex balanced inbreeding to In Reality, plus an additional cross to Intentionally through Tentam. As hpkingjr has mentioned on another thread, G1Goldmine shows that In Reality/In Reality has a good vgs as long as it's sex balanced.