Close Inbreeding -- Mr. P, Woodman, Seattle Slew

[marknickolas]

Among the several dozen weanlings I'm looking at from the upcoming Keenland sale, a few have some particularly close inbreeding. I wondered if anyone has had any experience with any 3x3 to Mr. Prospector, as well as 3x3 to Seattle Slew. Also, one was 2x3 to Woodman.

I really like these horses, but could use some thoughts on this. I'm not afraid of close inbreeding, but wondered whether I'm risking any specific comformational problems.

Thanks, Mark

[ZiaLand]

marknicholas, I don't even pretend to have the pedigree expertise of many on this board, but IMHO I would avoid doubling up Raise A Native blood in a pedigree, especially that close up, due to soundness issues. That would be in reference to the Mr. Prospector and Woodman linebreeding. I think the Seattle Slew linebreeding would be more forgiving, and probably has been done before. I would think a lot would ride on what the individual looks like, how they have performed, and maybe what they have already produced if anything.

Little side note here for Sam or other database tendees....Could someone please look at the little tirade posted under Seattle Slew's information and perhaps zap it? Personal opinions are fine, but I don't feel the database is the place for it. Just the facts, Jack. LOL

Laurie

[KAL]

Mark, in a nutshell... yes. Both Mr. P and Seattle Slew had some confirmational issues. I would also warn one to



Overbrook was very careful in the handling of Jump Start... to the point that they did not believe inbreeding to Seattle Slew was a very good idea.

Others have avoided doubling on Mr. P for years because of confirmational concerns. However we are starting to see more of that now...

Personally, the inbreeding would cause me to be very, very, attentive to the confirmational aspects of both individual and of sire. I also would pay very, very close attention to possible attempts at correction and, of course, the weanling's walk. If you pay close enough attention, even the best attempts at correction come undone by the walk. A horse may look dead straight, but you cannot correct the walk. Conversely, I have seen some weanlings which looked crooked, but walked straight. These are usually the products of a funky growth spurt, inattentive sales prep, poor professional services (blacksmith), or a combination of all. These also tend to straighten on their own, with proper care... they basically straighten to their walk.

It all comes down to the individual... which applies to the sire also. Some of the Mr. P sons tend to throw a decidedly different individual... as do some of the Seattle Slews... and of course, the mix changes somewhat when considering either as broodmare sire or grand-sire.

The 2 x 3 to Woodman sounds a little close, however if it is through a horse such as More Than Ready, it probably isn't that big a deal. In my mind, a thing to consider is the dominant gene theory. In More Than Ready's case, he definitely "stamps" them... more of a Halo type, in my opinion... so, I would simply look at the foal and determine "better, equal, or worse" than the "typical" for More Than Ready... the stallion.

Hope this helps.

[marknickolas]

KAL -- Thank you very much for your insight. Very, very helpful!

[louis finochio]

Before you embark into you line-breeding of Seattle Slew, Woodman, and Mr. P. You better do some research in this area. I completed a stallions progeny average starts index a few years ago. Seattle Slew progeny average starts was 11. Woodman was 11, Mr. P. was 14. All 3 of those stallions are on the low end of the totem pole. Mr. Leader was on top with 27 starts. These 3 stallions need an outcross to restore their soundness. Study the pedigree's of stallions that have an outcross and you will find that they do not have soundness problems.

[Mahubah]

From looking at the pedigrees of graded SWs inbred 4x4 or closer to Mr. P, having Fappiano as one of the crosses seems to be the most desirable. Fappiano seems to be an atypical son of Mr. Prospector as Nijinsky II is for Northern Dancer and seems to work better with the common male/male inbreeding that you see so often, just as Nijinsky II does among the Northern Dancers.

[DreamersPrincess]

Mahubah .. If I cross Rubikisses with Flatter I get

Mr Prospector 3x4 through Praise and Fappiano

So am I correct that you would generally avoid inbreeding this close, but if you HAVE to do it, better to make one a Fappiano type OR were you saying that with a Fappiano the inbreeding isn't as much a negative factor?

This mating also causes Northern Dancer 4x5 through Wild Applause and Nijinsky and Graustark 4x5. Is 4x5 considered closely inbred or linebred?

Thanks
Kami

[yukidragon]

" Raise A Native inherited two copies of a recessive gene for bad ankles.
Inbreeding to Raise A Native could cause problems, especially if the inbreeding is to close. A Raise A Native line stallion who also carries it breed to Raise a Native line mare, the resulting foal will have a dramatically increased probability of having ankle problems."

Thats a near about Quote from some web site I read awhile back.
For got which one.

[skeenan]

"ZiaLand"]Could someone please look at the little tirade posted under Seattle Slew's information and perhaps zap it? Personal opinions are fine, but I don't feel the database is the place for it. Just the facts, Jack. LOL

For the record (as I have openly admitted my adoration of Seattle Slew on this forum)... it wasn't me!

[Mahubah]

Mahubah .. If I cross Rubikisses with Flatter I get

Mr Prospector 3x4 through Praise and Fappiano

So am I correct that you would generally avoid inbreeding this close, but if you HAVE to do it, better to make one a Fappiano type OR were you saying that with a Fappiano the inbreeding isn't as much a negative factor?

This mating also causes Northern Dancer 4x5 through Wild Applause and Nijinsky and Graustark 4x5. Is 4x5 considered closely inbred or linebred?

Thanks
Kami

Whether I would inbreed this close or not would depend a great deal on the quality of the proposed sire and dam involved as well as the channels back to the proposed ancestor. Just to put things in perspective, a 3x3 cross to a common ancestor is only the equivalent of a second cousin marriage among humans -- actually, not even that close, since human second cousins generally share both a great-grandmother and a great-grandfather instead of just one great-grandparent. The reason it's less chancy with humans than with Thoroughbreds, however, is that in most cases the human second cousins don't share any other ancestors unless you go a long way back indeed, whereas the Thoroughbreds will most likely have more overlaps within six or seven generations.

In Mr. Prospector's case, Fappiano seems to bring some elements to the table that are uncommon to many of the Mr. Prospectors. Neither his damsire Dr. Fager or his second damsire Correlation are all that common in modern pedigrees, and both represent relatively rare sire lines. Fappiano was said by some to strongly resemble Dr. Fager, and his appearance was certainly larger and scopier than a typical Mr. Prospector, perhaps reflecting the fact that some of the dominant elements in his makeup weren't contributed by Mr. P. His strains of uncommon sire lines on the dam's side may mean that he brings more diversity to the background of a mating inbred to Mr. P than might be the case with most other sons (and daughters) of the great sire. Just a thought, and probably about as clear as mud.

[Derby2004]

Atlantic Ocean is 2x3 Seattle Slew and a nice coming three year old named Hot Storm is 3x3 Slew. I am not a big fan of inbreeding Mr P unless it is at least 4x4 with physical flaws taken into serious consideration

[DreamersPrincess]

Mahubah - thanks for the reasoning of why Fappiano may not have the same impact... In eNicks, Mr P sons like Forty Niner are a good nick with Fappiano and if eNicks rates closer crosses higher ... I could see why there would be a lot of them out there.

Derby2004 - I'm in agreement for this horse since ankles were her problem. Since there's so much Mr P out there, that shortens my list considerably.

Always learning, that you all for the responses.

Kami

[Derby2004]

If she has ankle problems, I would definitely shy away from any Raise A Native line.

[horsenuts]

Among the several dozen weanlings I'm looking at from the upcoming Keenland sale, a few have some particularly close inbreeding. I wondered if anyone has had any experience with any 3x3 to Mr. Prospector, as well as 3x3 to Seattle Slew. Also, one was 2x3 to Woodman.

I really like these horses, but could use some thoughts on this. I'm not afraid of close inbreeding, but wondered whether I'm risking any specific comformational problems.

Thanks, Mark

I think there will be more and more Mr P inbreeding in the very near future as it has already started with Roman Ruler who is 2 x 4 and Fusaichi Samurai who is a 2 x 3 believe it or not. FuSam sold for 4.5 million as a 2 year old so obviously serious buyers had no qualms with a 2 x 3 Mr P. And both of these horses have shown quite a bit of run as well. It's very possible close inbreeding of Mr P will produce running machines.

As for the confirmation/soundness issues.. that's true of nearly every bloodline today. The Kentucky stud farms are bursting at the seams with Storm Cats Mr Ps Danzig's Unbridled's Seattle Slews etc that ran 5-6-7- times and were "retired". If I'm looking for soundness I'd probably try and get into Cozzene's family among a small handful of others.

Soundness/durability doesn't mean much in today's market place, unfortunately. If you can get 4-5 top races out of a horse that's enough to "write your own ticket" in the breeding shed in many instances and that's all the big buyers are looking for, sadly .