Flower Bowl inbreeding

[pembroke]

I don't know where that theory of Swaps being the sire of Graustark came from but it is ridiculous. You are not the first person I have heard this from.

[Maven]

I think it had to do with his coloring. I'm iffy on the subject but I know some of our best breeding minds believe it as fact. So, who knows?

[pembroke]

I would love to talk to those breeding minds to see where their theory comes from. Can you name them?

[xfactor fan]

Ellen Parker for one. It was on her website that this showed up, and I was curious.


Swaps was chestnut, Ribot bay, Graustark also chestnut. But Ribot sired other chestnut foals so from a color standpoint this isn't conclusive.

[Maven]

As it was said, Ellen Parker is one who believes it without doubt. Ann Peters mentioned it once before, I believe at a seminar she was guesting at. I also heard it mentioned from Charles Nuckols.

It's worth noting, I believe (not 100% sure) all of Ribot's chestnuts were out of chestnut mares. Flower Bowl was a bay, hence the speculation.

[pembroke]

Bold Ruler, Nasrullah, Miss Disco, Nearco, Mumtaz Begum, Outdone

Something Royal, Princequillo, Imperatrice, Prince Rose, Cosquillo, Cinquepace,

All Bays...All immediate ancestors of one very famous chestnut.

Secretariat

Only chestnut...Discovery

Maybe that is why Graustark was special.

[xfactor fan]

Two pairs of genes:

The base coat color in horses either red (the recessive) or black.

EE, Ee are black base coat horses.

ee are red base coat horses.

Agouti = Bay A chestnut horse carries the agouti genes but does not show and effect as the Agouti only works on black base coats.

AA, Aa =Bay aa = Black, or seal brown.

Ribot who was bay but sired chestnut and black/brown foals so had to have been

Ee, Aa.

Swaps who was chestnut but also sired black/brown foals so he was

ee, ?a (most likely Aa)

Each time Ribot had a date with a chestnut mare, he had a 50-50 chance of producing a chestnut foal.

So based on color alone there wouldn't have been a case for Swaps being the sire. However from the bad picture in the data base, Graustark looked a bit more like Swaps than Ribot to my eye.

Any one with a better eye, or first hand knowledge of the horses in question want to weigh in?

[LaTroienne]

Some at Chronicle Forums makes a good point:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/sh ... p?t=108367

Rumors had been running around for years that Swaps was really Graustark's sire; it was simply rumors. Other than them both being chestnut, the resemblence ended there. Darby Dan themselves bred Graustark to many of Swaps' good daughters, including Primonetta, so it would make no sense that they would do that if they thought Graustark was really by Swaps. Plus the fact that Ribot had many good chestnut sons that closely resembled Graustark. That rumor was put to rest a long time ago.

[pembroke]

THANK YOU LaTroienne!!!!

[fastappy]

I think the fact that both Swaps and Flower Bowl (the dam of Graustark & His Majesty) are so closely related, including with the fact that Flower Bowl & Swaps have the very influential Hyperion (Chestnut) as their grandsire and both are out of a Beau Pere (GB) mares. This most likely accounts for the "Chestnut" issues and any other physical similarities.

[Bettina]

Hallo,
here in Germany stands a sire with inbreeding to Graustark/His Majesty
3 x 3 and the Sire Danehill 3 x 3 Natalma. His name is Royal Dragon (Danehill - Carmelized by Key to the Mint) from the American 'Two Bob' family, Fam. 23. He went to stud in 2003 and stands at the Ebbesloh Stud.

His oldest offspring are 3 year olds and his so far best racehorse is Laeya Star (Royal Dragon - Linton Bay by Funambule).

Regards from Germany, Bettina

[BenB]

I was thinking of sending our filly (Mellanie Surprise) to Royal Dragon putting up an extra cross to Ribot vs Graustark.
The dam of Mellanie Surprise (dark brown)was sent two times to Royal Dragon.
The two yr old (Special Surprise) "Lady Longlegs" is 17.1 plus with tiny bones compared to her body.(brown) 2 times winner as a juvenile stays at least 10 furlongs
The three yr old is 15.2 (Shanice Surprise) big body, small tiny bones ( dark brown) 1 time winner as a three yr old 7 furlongs at Max
The problem with duplicate Flower Bowl seems much more the temperamental side to me. We all know Ribot wasn't the easiest horse in the world.