Hi Bondama,
I don't think that anyone is trying to be condescending, but from a racing perspective, your mares don't have a lot of commercial value, nor a lot of success themselves or in their families at the track.
It's true that Diplomatic Pleasure has some famous names in her pedigree but that's not how you judge the quality of a potential broodmare. Many of the 'names' in the pedigree are acquired through sons who failed at stud like Princely Pleasure, Sr. Diplomat, Right Proud and Quick Wink. If you're not breeding to race and the mare has the conformation that you need, the names are not very important.
I'd also be very careful breeding to any Storm Cat line stallion for show purposes since they are often pass front end problems (especially the old man himself).
I'm sure that there are a lot of others on the board who can make better recommendations for sport horse breeding than I can.
Best of luck.
Pete
Breeding Advice Sought! (re: Diplomatic Pleasure-mare)
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
Bondama - Madelyn's last post about "hedging your bets" by getting your mare approved for warmblood registry and then crossing her with a WB stallion is not bad advice at all. The reality is that regardless of whether you are breeding for your own use or to sell - you have the option to breed a horse that both fits your own use criteria AND has broader market appeal/value in the process. Why wouldn't you go there? Considering this is a project to make top level competition riding availale to your daughter - who is, I believe from your post, only a baby now - you have time on your side, even if money is scarce. Consider this - there is a possibility that your daughter may not take to equestrian competition or suddenly give it up altogether - all it takes is one bad spill to deter some vey talented young riders from wanting to continue. Then there you are - with a horse to sell. Why not set up a breeding that lets that time work for you....and covers a broader range of contingincies at the same time.
An Example: I have a TB mare, in somewhat the same situation as you - she is what the racing world would consider pretty blue collar and unlikely to produce either an auction success or the next KY Derby winner. Still, stubbornly, I have solidered on breeding her to 4 different stallions, six times for 5 foals total over a 9 year period. Result: a lot of money spent, one heartbreak filly that was euthanized, one 'hopeful' yearling filly in the barn, one 1X winner who has gone onto be trained for polo and one that has gone onto equestrian competition as a pretty good dressage/eventing horse and one 14.3HH mare that is at the moment a pasture "pet" at the farm. Meanwhile a friend who bought her TB mare off the track at roughly the same time has consistently bred hers to "WB" type stallions - some of recognized registry and some that I call 'concocted WB' meaning a percheron crossed with a Tb or Appendix QH, etc. to produce a so-called WB stallion. Every one of her foals has sold for $3500-$5000 - - as sucklings! She has never paid more than $1000 to breed her mare. None of mine would sell for much more than their stud fees - if that - as sucklings/weanlings let alone for enough to cover the money it takes to get them to yearling age. AND here's the final rub: while her mare is not nearly as well put together or as correct and balanced as mine she has 'been improved' by almost every stallion she was put to while my lovely mare bred to nothing but pure blood TB stallions of good quality for the regional breed to race arena have fairly often produced a smaller and sometimes not perfectly correct foal. The point being that when you breed hybrid to hybrid - as you are doing with any TB to TB cross you really don't know what you are going to get until you've seen a few, while if you breed to strains of 'different' but "pure" blood, thereby producing a true hybrid, you have a good chance to get the best - or even something better than - both strains offer. A good example of this hybrid vigor working for your mare in particular is the line-back red dun filly that resulted from crossing her to a buckskin.
So why not go for a breeding that is perfectly capable of taking your daughter - should she do as well at equestrian sports and have the desire to go forward with it - to the top level....AND....if your daughter chooses not to be the top level equestrian you envision her to be or decides boys are infinitely more interesting.....you have a better chance to have a horse worth something in the marketplace so that you could put at least a good portion of the money you are about to spend into a college fund.
BTW - Though I am a great fan of the TB as a breed for performance sports of many kinds, most of the top Olympic and International show horses are if not registered WBs then at least TB-WB crosses of some sort....don't you think there might be areason for that?
FINALLY I would point out that the absolute worse horse for high level equestrian performances - other than for racing - is a young and inexperienced horse - of any breeding - who, though talented, has been PUSHED to perform beyond his years. I see this all the time in equestrian sport arenas/eventing competitions: 4-7 YO WBs and TBs being pushed to perform like the seasoned pros you see at Rolex, the Olympics and showcased in all the equestrian magazines at the top of their respective competition levels. A year or two of this at the most and suddenly that once promising TB or WB youngster "ready for the "A circuit" is now being 'sold' at age 6/9 as an "experienced campaigner".........complete with splints, all sorts of medication/supplements to keep them 'supple' or sound and wedge pads for their feet. IF you breed your mare this summer you are 4-5 years away from having a horse ready to begin basic training on and 6-8 years away from relatively light training and competing in most equestrian sports. That may sound like a schedule that fits your daughter's age very well but it is also one that puts a young person 'learning' on the back of a young, inexperienced horse who is also 'learning' - not the best match in the world for achieving success.
Watch the Olympics - you can get the tapes and research the horses that you see in the top teams - especially the Germans: a 7YO is considered very "Green" by almost anyone at this level of competition - no matter the level of talent or potential. Usually when you see one of these youngsters being competed at this level it is to give them the experience as preparation for what they are going to be asked to do at age 9, 10 and beyond. I so remember the Barcelona Olympics and the day of competing over the eventing course. German rider, after German rider rode 'flawless' rounds, taking the most difficult route on 14, 16 and 18 yo WBs and TB/WB crosses in 100degree heat and humidity that made the heat factor closer to 110 degrees or more that day. Meanwhile the American team, well placed after the dressage portion, simply imploded at the very start of the course on their much younger and inexperienced horses. It wasn't the breeding or the talent - it was the experience factor that made the difference that day...and often does.
Whatever you decide I wish you - and your daughter - well. It's a tough business breeding horses, emotionally and financially, no matter the bloodlines or breed, AND it's a tough sport to participate in/excel at. Good Luck!
An Example: I have a TB mare, in somewhat the same situation as you - she is what the racing world would consider pretty blue collar and unlikely to produce either an auction success or the next KY Derby winner. Still, stubbornly, I have solidered on breeding her to 4 different stallions, six times for 5 foals total over a 9 year period. Result: a lot of money spent, one heartbreak filly that was euthanized, one 'hopeful' yearling filly in the barn, one 1X winner who has gone onto be trained for polo and one that has gone onto equestrian competition as a pretty good dressage/eventing horse and one 14.3HH mare that is at the moment a pasture "pet" at the farm. Meanwhile a friend who bought her TB mare off the track at roughly the same time has consistently bred hers to "WB" type stallions - some of recognized registry and some that I call 'concocted WB' meaning a percheron crossed with a Tb or Appendix QH, etc. to produce a so-called WB stallion. Every one of her foals has sold for $3500-$5000 - - as sucklings! She has never paid more than $1000 to breed her mare. None of mine would sell for much more than their stud fees - if that - as sucklings/weanlings let alone for enough to cover the money it takes to get them to yearling age. AND here's the final rub: while her mare is not nearly as well put together or as correct and balanced as mine she has 'been improved' by almost every stallion she was put to while my lovely mare bred to nothing but pure blood TB stallions of good quality for the regional breed to race arena have fairly often produced a smaller and sometimes not perfectly correct foal. The point being that when you breed hybrid to hybrid - as you are doing with any TB to TB cross you really don't know what you are going to get until you've seen a few, while if you breed to strains of 'different' but "pure" blood, thereby producing a true hybrid, you have a good chance to get the best - or even something better than - both strains offer. A good example of this hybrid vigor working for your mare in particular is the line-back red dun filly that resulted from crossing her to a buckskin.
So why not go for a breeding that is perfectly capable of taking your daughter - should she do as well at equestrian sports and have the desire to go forward with it - to the top level....AND....if your daughter chooses not to be the top level equestrian you envision her to be or decides boys are infinitely more interesting.....you have a better chance to have a horse worth something in the marketplace so that you could put at least a good portion of the money you are about to spend into a college fund.
BTW - Though I am a great fan of the TB as a breed for performance sports of many kinds, most of the top Olympic and International show horses are if not registered WBs then at least TB-WB crosses of some sort....don't you think there might be areason for that?
FINALLY I would point out that the absolute worse horse for high level equestrian performances - other than for racing - is a young and inexperienced horse - of any breeding - who, though talented, has been PUSHED to perform beyond his years. I see this all the time in equestrian sport arenas/eventing competitions: 4-7 YO WBs and TBs being pushed to perform like the seasoned pros you see at Rolex, the Olympics and showcased in all the equestrian magazines at the top of their respective competition levels. A year or two of this at the most and suddenly that once promising TB or WB youngster "ready for the "A circuit" is now being 'sold' at age 6/9 as an "experienced campaigner".........complete with splints, all sorts of medication/supplements to keep them 'supple' or sound and wedge pads for their feet. IF you breed your mare this summer you are 4-5 years away from having a horse ready to begin basic training on and 6-8 years away from relatively light training and competing in most equestrian sports. That may sound like a schedule that fits your daughter's age very well but it is also one that puts a young person 'learning' on the back of a young, inexperienced horse who is also 'learning' - not the best match in the world for achieving success.
Watch the Olympics - you can get the tapes and research the horses that you see in the top teams - especially the Germans: a 7YO is considered very "Green" by almost anyone at this level of competition - no matter the level of talent or potential. Usually when you see one of these youngsters being competed at this level it is to give them the experience as preparation for what they are going to be asked to do at age 9, 10 and beyond. I so remember the Barcelona Olympics and the day of competing over the eventing course. German rider, after German rider rode 'flawless' rounds, taking the most difficult route on 14, 16 and 18 yo WBs and TB/WB crosses in 100degree heat and humidity that made the heat factor closer to 110 degrees or more that day. Meanwhile the American team, well placed after the dressage portion, simply imploded at the very start of the course on their much younger and inexperienced horses. It wasn't the breeding or the talent - it was the experience factor that made the difference that day...and often does.
Whatever you decide I wish you - and your daughter - well. It's a tough business breeding horses, emotionally and financially, no matter the bloodlines or breed, AND it's a tough sport to participate in/excel at. Good Luck!
Pete - Thanks - it came from the heart and from 9 going on 10 years of 'hard fought' experience and some failings. I have a lot of empathy for Bondama's goal for her daughter as it is one I would have loved to pursue when I was younger and simply never had the opportunity due to lack of funds in my family. As a result the decision to buy a TB mare and commence a program to breed to race in Texas was lifelong dream for me. I have to admit that I am quite stubborn (by nature) and that it's taken 9 entire years for me to see some of the pitfalls in what I set out to do in 1996 with respect to my goals.....not a 'steep' learning curve by any means but rather that of a real plodder.....(scheesh, it kills me to admit that!) Wish I had found this Board before then. Back when I started out (I thought) I was doing a lot of research and learning a great deal and now I realize that I had the 'worm's eye' view and not that of the 'eagle'....which is definitely a more inclusive perspective. The shared perspective and knowlege of the various posters at this Board - not to mention the honest encouragement/ constructive criticism I've received - has truly been a treasure.
Bondama - After I put my (sorry they ar so wordy) thoughts down above I did some more research and came up with the following link which has alot of information directly relevant to your intent in breeding Diplomatic Pleasure - I hope you find it as interesting as I did. In particular I was amazed at the utter lack of 100% pure TBs at the top levels of show jumping competition. I knew the WB and WB crosses were dominant but did not realize that it was to the point of being exclusive of the 100% pure TBs (at least at the top levels). I especially noted the following descriptor and thought it noteworthy in the brief discussion about the 2002 WEG & 2004 and Olympic competition chamions' breeding: "purpose bred" - it was in reference to two cross-bred horses, one a TB-QH cross - that didn't make it to the final rounds. Interesting that the author thought these two out-crossed pedigreed horses were not 'purpose bred', at least not enough so to have been considered serious contenders for the final rounds though they are most certainly outstanding jumpers. Food for thought.
thhttp://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSir ... ndex.htmle
I think that is what I am really trying to convey to you that the foremost thing to keep in one's mind when making the decision to breed is 'what is your purpose and what stallion and mare best fit that purpose' not how can a breed this horse or that one towards that purpose.
Bondama - After I put my (sorry they ar so wordy) thoughts down above I did some more research and came up with the following link which has alot of information directly relevant to your intent in breeding Diplomatic Pleasure - I hope you find it as interesting as I did. In particular I was amazed at the utter lack of 100% pure TBs at the top levels of show jumping competition. I knew the WB and WB crosses were dominant but did not realize that it was to the point of being exclusive of the 100% pure TBs (at least at the top levels). I especially noted the following descriptor and thought it noteworthy in the brief discussion about the 2002 WEG & 2004 and Olympic competition chamions' breeding: "purpose bred" - it was in reference to two cross-bred horses, one a TB-QH cross - that didn't make it to the final rounds. Interesting that the author thought these two out-crossed pedigreed horses were not 'purpose bred', at least not enough so to have been considered serious contenders for the final rounds though they are most certainly outstanding jumpers. Food for thought.
thhttp://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSir ... ndex.htmle
I think that is what I am really trying to convey to you that the foremost thing to keep in one's mind when making the decision to breed is 'what is your purpose and what stallion and mare best fit that purpose' not how can a breed this horse or that one towards that purpose.
Bondama -
Found a site that might be of interest to you: it features Tb stallions for sport horse breeding with a focus on Jumpers/Dressage & Eventers.
http://www.apachefarm.net/html/stallions.html
Two things that I thought were interesting -
1) they are standing a son of Princely Pleasure your mare's sire so you can see what another Princely Pleasure aimed at the equestrian performance sports looks like/has accomplished,
2) several of their TB stallions are proven producers of fairly top level jumpers - especially 'Our Diplomat' who also shares an up-close stallion in your mare's pedigree on her maternal side and
3) their stallions can be bred to via artifical insemination at reasonable fees (compared to the cost of natural cover and shipping, etc.).
While the 100% TB offspring that would result cannot be JCA registered - you could meet your goal of keeping the blood pure and yet have a 'purpose bred' horse for your daughter. In addition to these there are some very nice TB sport horse stallions out there that have proven their worth in the breeding shed as 'sport horse' stallions. Being proven gives you the chance to see what their offspring look like and guage how they've done in the very sport endeavor you're interested in developing a foal for.
Do a Google search on "Deputed Duke", Thoroughbred" for such a TB stallion standing here in Texas whom I like. He's a son of the very successfully raced Deputed Testimony, was raced himself, then brought back as a show horse after a career ending injury. He certainly has all the attributes you might want in a sport horse stallion: superb conformation, a great 'trainable' mind, balance and balletic movement, etc. You might also check out the very colorful stallion that this Board's Camohn stands in Pennsylvania. I'm not sure but believe that you can breed to both of the aforementioned via A.I. techniques.
Here's another link to a TB stallion standing in Florida for a reasonable fee for sport horse breeders who has proven his ability to sire high level competitive jumpers:
http://www.equine.com/stallions/dshowho ... eid=816405
Again - Good luck!!
Found a site that might be of interest to you: it features Tb stallions for sport horse breeding with a focus on Jumpers/Dressage & Eventers.
http://www.apachefarm.net/html/stallions.html
Two things that I thought were interesting -
1) they are standing a son of Princely Pleasure your mare's sire so you can see what another Princely Pleasure aimed at the equestrian performance sports looks like/has accomplished,
2) several of their TB stallions are proven producers of fairly top level jumpers - especially 'Our Diplomat' who also shares an up-close stallion in your mare's pedigree on her maternal side and
3) their stallions can be bred to via artifical insemination at reasonable fees (compared to the cost of natural cover and shipping, etc.).
While the 100% TB offspring that would result cannot be JCA registered - you could meet your goal of keeping the blood pure and yet have a 'purpose bred' horse for your daughter. In addition to these there are some very nice TB sport horse stallions out there that have proven their worth in the breeding shed as 'sport horse' stallions. Being proven gives you the chance to see what their offspring look like and guage how they've done in the very sport endeavor you're interested in developing a foal for.
Do a Google search on "Deputed Duke", Thoroughbred" for such a TB stallion standing here in Texas whom I like. He's a son of the very successfully raced Deputed Testimony, was raced himself, then brought back as a show horse after a career ending injury. He certainly has all the attributes you might want in a sport horse stallion: superb conformation, a great 'trainable' mind, balance and balletic movement, etc. You might also check out the very colorful stallion that this Board's Camohn stands in Pennsylvania. I'm not sure but believe that you can breed to both of the aforementioned via A.I. techniques.
Here's another link to a TB stallion standing in Florida for a reasonable fee for sport horse breeders who has proven his ability to sire high level competitive jumpers:
http://www.equine.com/stallions/dshowho ... eid=816405
Again - Good luck!!