Question on definition of "Immediate family" [with

[HiddenEchoFarm]

I wasn't sure which forum to post in, so I came back to where I got so much help considering various pedigrees for our new stallion http://www.pedigreequery.com/mountain+top .

We purchased a couple mares & my wife would like one more, if we can figure out where to put her. One mare we already bought is Nadine's Cape, http://www.pedigreequery.com/nadines+cape .

We believed her family had an affinity for Turn-To horses, having produced Debby's Turn by a breeding of Nadine's 2nd dam to Turn To Mars & Turn The Guns from a mating of her 3rd dam the same stallion, who happens to be Mountain Top's grandsire on the bottom.

Debby's Turn produced the stallion Tour D'Or http://www.pedigreequery.com/tour+dor , which for me raised the question --

Is Tour D'Or considered the same "immediate family" as Nadine's Cape? Where does the "immediate family" end & the extended or distant family begin [and is there a term for that extended family that I should be using?]

A second example, in case it makes the question clearer: Is She Ain't No Paint [I saw her on the CANTER Ohio website] http://www.pedigreequery.com/she+aintnopaint "from the immediate family of" Winning Colors http://www.pedigreequery.com/winning+colors because Winning Colors' 2nd dam is She Ain't No Paint's 4th dam? [This isn't the mare my wife wants. Well, I'm sure she would want her, but I meant to say it isn't the one currently on her radar screen.]

Thanks -- in advance -- for clearing up my confusion.

The original string where you all were so helpful is below, in case the original information is helpful:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... ly&start=0

[madelyn]

Ah semantics. If I were to describe those relationships, I would say that Nadine's Cape is from the same female family that produced Debby's Turn, et al. And she is tail female to Miss Carmie.

They are all in the immediate female family if they are directly under the damline.

But I'm no expert on this and have asked in the past about computing partial siblings... for example, I have a mare Lady Bomb, whose full sister is the dam of Jaguar City. If I breed Lady Bomb to Slew City Slew, what is the relationship of the resulting offspring to Jaguar City? Equivalent Full Sibling?

[Pan Zareta]

If I breed Lady Bomb to Slew City Slew, what is the relationship of the resulting offspring to Jaguar City? Equivalent Full Sibling?

7/8th siblings.

Nadine's Cape and Debby's Turn share the same female family - A5. Miss Carmie is from 23-b.

[HiddenEchoFarm]

The way I asked was confusing.

I wanted to know what "immediate family means" since I see it in ads & want to use the phrase correctly.

Are Debby's Turn & Nadine's Cape related closely enough to be considered from the same immediate family? If not, where does "immediate" end? Does immediate family just mean female family?


The question about Miss Carmie/Winning Colors/She Ain't No Paint was not related in any way to the above mares -- it was just a second example, completely unrelated to the first example, wondering if in this particular family where the Winning Colors/She Ain't No Paint relationship is farther apart, how far apart they need to be to not be "immediate".

I'm really not making it any clearer, am I?

[Pan Zareta]

"Immediate family" usually refers to all direct descendants of a dam in tail female within the first three or four or even five generations of the pedigree, and is often used in adverts when there's a blue hen (major producer) in the tf (like Flatter is advertised as being from the immediate family of Broodmare of the Year Glowing Tribute, his 3d dam).

Sharing any dam in tail female, regardless of generation, means shared mitochondrial DNA haplotype (assuming no branches where errors in the historic record have been detected by contemporary mtDNA sampling appear in the tf), but obviously the nearer the dam in common, the greater the import of the kinship betw individuals.

[HiddenEchoFarm]

Thanks to both Pan Zareta & Madelyn --

I think I get it now!

[madelyn]

Right.. I got messed up with the Winning Colors question.. of course Nadine's Cape is tail female to Swizzlestick.. or Yorkville Belle, or whoever along that bottom line was a mare of note, NOT Miss Carmie.

As with most data in life, specific pieces get pulled out to make a point. In the case of horses, certain points in a pedigree get illuminated to be used as a marketing tool.

Let's take, for example, a mare I picked up last month, Julie's Gem (in foal to Minardi). There isn't much to write home about at this time among her siblings. But her dam, Conga Miss, won the Sixty Sails Handicap, among other stakes, and earned $155,522 and is half sister to SW Chancy Bidder. HER dam is half to SW Nascania and Firerullah, and to Legato, dam of Tallahto (GSW and dam of SP Le Duc de Bar, GSW Hidden Light (dam of SP Speed to Burn and GSW AND SOON TO BE SIRE Artie Schiller) and GSW Prince True) PLUS dam of Banja Luka (dam of SW's Donna Inez, Jayston, Ancient Art, Plinth, Dancing and FERDINAND), Le Cle (SW and dam of GSW Ask Me and SP Gormley) and Pedrinho (SP), etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum...

But my point, and I do have one, is that Julie's Gem is out of a $156K SW mare, and from the immediate female family of Artie Schiller, Ferdinand, etc. and there are more than 20 stakes horses under her third dam.

If you are a subscriber, you can pull up Julie's Gem, hit female family and you will see the (some or most of) the blacktype horses there. I think I got her family pretty much updated.

[HiddenEchoFarm]

Thanks, Madelyn. Excellent example & completely off-topic, Julie's Gem's sire, Judge Smells, was a dear friend of mine . . . he loved peppermints & would stick his tongue out at you to get you to play with it. What a character & he produced beautiful babies. We looked at one ourselves a few months ago, but it didn't work out.

Sorry to throw you off with the Winning Colors thing -- my mistake!

[madelyn]

Cool to know.. I have always wondered whatever possessed them to name him "Judge Smells" -- I think of His Honor who didn't have time to shower.

Julie's Gem is a positively stunning mare, so it stands to reason that others by that stallion might be eye candy.

I posted her for sale awhile back, (pacify husband, show a pathetic attempt to help the cashflow) but so far just tirekickers. I hope Artie Schiller takes off in a big way, this mare is young enough for it to affect her value (positively, of course)....