I didn't even think of Danzig -- I'd love to see those suggestions, too.
Also, as a follow-up, does anyone know of any negative nicks or any lines to avoid with a Cox's Ridge/Best Turn top side & a Turn to Mars dam-sire line?
[I'm still looking at that full sister to Boldnesian in his pedigree & trying to calculate THAT into the equation, too.]
And again thanks for all the thoughtful responses. You all have certainly given me a lot to consider.
Help finding mare lines for double-bred Turn-To stallion
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HiddenEchoFarm
- 2yo Maiden
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Pennsylvania
First and foremost - given this stallion's current age and the fact that at least the bulk of his better wins were achieved rather late in his career I'd make sure his initial book had a solid line up of mares that were 2YO/3YO runners/winners themselves and/or already proven capable of producing 2YO runners/winners and more of that in the immediate family. This stallion is going to need all the help he can get from his mares to have some runners and winners in that first foal crop actually get to the track and win before their 4YO year. SO bottom line I'd look for prospective broodmares who raced/won at 2YO or at least by age 3 - and/or have a female family history of consistently producing early maturing and speedy types. A particular pedigree match up would be my secondary consideration and no more important than consideration of the conformation match between stallion and mare.
Looking at his female family points out an interesting - and unusual - program of intense inbreeding to his third dam "Crestwood Dottie" by a number of his first and second dam's matings/those of their offspring: 2 of his dam's BT offspring are the result of breeding her to her "cousins" Lord Rebeau and Commandore C. There are other similar inbreeding experiments throughout this stallions' female family under first and second dams though not always as successful and both of those were moderate successes in and of themselves.
Aside from those observations I'm going to make a suggestion and this is a bit of a reach - you might consider looking for one or two of the better daughters of Pok Ta Pok who stood/stands? in Pa. as I see some affinity between your stallion's female family and FULL DAY, a son of FULL POCKET. POK TA POK is a son of FULL POCKET and he's done fairly well in Pa. (before it was so condusive to breed TBs under that state's program so with little assist in the mare department). Perhaps the reverse mating might work. It's really just kind of a hunch I had looking at this stallion's damside pedigree wise but I wouldn't breed him to just any ol' Pok Ta Pok mare and expect that to be a good test - hold out for one of his better female offspring - especially one that's proving herself in the breeding shed as capable of producing runners/winners or look somewhere else. One of your stallion's half siblings, the mare Acute, was sired by Uruguayo (of the now rare Pronto/Timor branch of Tourbillion/Byerly Turk sireline) who in turn was bred to the aforementioned stallion/cousin: Lord Rebeau to produce Acute Beau who in turn produced Puerto Rican SW CARVA JAL when bred to FULL DAY – a sire son of FULL POCKET (see note above about Pok Ta Pok).
Finally I also note his dam’s highly inbred offspring, Spin Around (by the aforementioned Commadore C) has produced two offspring by Cee’s Tizzy to race, one of those having earned almost $100K to date (per this db) and maybe more. Another of this mare's produce is by Helmsman and was the highest priced horse to sell at the 2004 Barrett’s sale ($110K) though per this db it hasn't done much at the track. The Cee’s Tizzy mating is a complete outcross to the highly inbred dam’s side of these individuals while the Helmsman mating is almost a complete outcross except that it duplicates the Nearco of the dam’s sireline. WHile your stallion is not so inbred as Spin Around I'd take a close look at that Helmsman pedigree and get more details on that particular sale. How the horse worked and what he looked like, etc. IF bringing in a distant cross to Nearco can produce a good looking and fast working 2YO that caught the attention of California auction buyers I'd consider that an effort worthy of trying to duplicate in the reverse by finding a mare that traces tail male to Nearco and is of the early maturing type sireline/female family history. That could be one of this stallion's better selling points - outcross breeding for Mr. P and Northern Dancer inbred mares.
Looking at his female family points out an interesting - and unusual - program of intense inbreeding to his third dam "Crestwood Dottie" by a number of his first and second dam's matings/those of their offspring: 2 of his dam's BT offspring are the result of breeding her to her "cousins" Lord Rebeau and Commandore C. There are other similar inbreeding experiments throughout this stallions' female family under first and second dams though not always as successful and both of those were moderate successes in and of themselves.
Aside from those observations I'm going to make a suggestion and this is a bit of a reach - you might consider looking for one or two of the better daughters of Pok Ta Pok who stood/stands? in Pa. as I see some affinity between your stallion's female family and FULL DAY, a son of FULL POCKET. POK TA POK is a son of FULL POCKET and he's done fairly well in Pa. (before it was so condusive to breed TBs under that state's program so with little assist in the mare department). Perhaps the reverse mating might work. It's really just kind of a hunch I had looking at this stallion's damside pedigree wise but I wouldn't breed him to just any ol' Pok Ta Pok mare and expect that to be a good test - hold out for one of his better female offspring - especially one that's proving herself in the breeding shed as capable of producing runners/winners or look somewhere else. One of your stallion's half siblings, the mare Acute, was sired by Uruguayo (of the now rare Pronto/Timor branch of Tourbillion/Byerly Turk sireline) who in turn was bred to the aforementioned stallion/cousin: Lord Rebeau to produce Acute Beau who in turn produced Puerto Rican SW CARVA JAL when bred to FULL DAY – a sire son of FULL POCKET (see note above about Pok Ta Pok).
Finally I also note his dam’s highly inbred offspring, Spin Around (by the aforementioned Commadore C) has produced two offspring by Cee’s Tizzy to race, one of those having earned almost $100K to date (per this db) and maybe more. Another of this mare's produce is by Helmsman and was the highest priced horse to sell at the 2004 Barrett’s sale ($110K) though per this db it hasn't done much at the track. The Cee’s Tizzy mating is a complete outcross to the highly inbred dam’s side of these individuals while the Helmsman mating is almost a complete outcross except that it duplicates the Nearco of the dam’s sireline. WHile your stallion is not so inbred as Spin Around I'd take a close look at that Helmsman pedigree and get more details on that particular sale. How the horse worked and what he looked like, etc. IF bringing in a distant cross to Nearco can produce a good looking and fast working 2YO that caught the attention of California auction buyers I'd consider that an effort worthy of trying to duplicate in the reverse by finding a mare that traces tail male to Nearco and is of the early maturing type sireline/female family history. That could be one of this stallion's better selling points - outcross breeding for Mr. P and Northern Dancer inbred mares.
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HiddenEchoFarm
- 2yo Maiden
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Pennsylvania
Creswood Dottie
We must have been doing the research on his female family at more-or-less the same time. I was laughing that I'd been so concerned at the 2 crosses to Turn-To being kinda close then I saw that someone or some folks were breeding Creswood Dottie offspring to their extremely close relatives and getting some good [and some bad] results.
We did choose him partially because he's an outcross to Mr. Prospector & Northern Dancer [we've got those lines in some of our mares] & partially because he is a big, beautifully proportioned individual who moves in balance. The fact that he stayed healthy & clean-legged in race training this late in life speaks to his soundness, which I hope he'll pass on, too. And while we will look at pedigrees now, we will be looking even more strongly at how the mare will match him physically, before we make any decision.
I appreciate your comments -- you've echoed a few of my thoughts & given me something new to think about, with the suggestion of Full Pocket sons. Thank you.
We did choose him partially because he's an outcross to Mr. Prospector & Northern Dancer [we've got those lines in some of our mares] & partially because he is a big, beautifully proportioned individual who moves in balance. The fact that he stayed healthy & clean-legged in race training this late in life speaks to his soundness, which I hope he'll pass on, too. And while we will look at pedigrees now, we will be looking even more strongly at how the mare will match him physically, before we make any decision.
I appreciate your comments -- you've echoed a few of my thoughts & given me something new to think about, with the suggestion of Full Pocket sons. Thank you.
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Worksoplad
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 541
- Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:09 pm
- Location: Manhattan Beach, California
I found this interesting piece by Andrew Caulfield in the TDN on the subject of Broad Brush's inbreeding to Turn-To. Hope it helps.
"Although Mongoose matured quickly enough to win a Saratoga maiden and the Miller Genuine Draft Cradle S. in his first three starts as a juvenile, it isn't too surprising that he is now showing the best form of his life as a four-year-old.
Broad Brush is a tall, rangy individual standing 16.2 hands and Mongoose's dam Salty Gal is by Cox's Ridge, a 16.3-hand son of the 17.2-hand Best Turn. That said, size didn't prevent any of the three from showing very good form as three-year-olds, with Broad Brush gaining seven wins from 14 starts at that age, Cox's Ridge eight from 11 and Best Turn six from 10. All three, though, were arguably even better at four.
Broad Brush has the distinction of being inbred 3x3 to Turn-to, a stallion whose name is often linked to unsoundness. Fortunately, Broad Brush proved to have more in common with his sire Ack Ack, with both being sound enough to race 27 times during careers which featured victories in the Santa Anita H. over 1 1/4 miles.[/b]
Broad Brush's trainer Dick Small once revealed that, "I realized right then [after an early defeat] that this horse needed very stern, hard training; he needed fast works close to his races to run to his best. We worked him whenever we could because we knew we couldn't miss a single day."
Broad Brush's very tough constitution has allowed him to do well with mares which possess more Turn-to blood. His son Include, winner of the GI Pimlico Special, is inbred 4x4x4 to Turn-to, as are his Grade III-winning daughters Brushed Halory and Magic Broad, and so is Mongoose.
In fact, Mongoose has an extra line to two of Broad Brush's three great-grandsires: Broad Brush's dam, Hay Patcher, was a grand-daughter of Tom Rolfe, and so is Mongoose's second dam, Salt Spring. Interestingly another of Broad Brush's Grade I winners, Pompeii, also has two lines of Ribot in her pedigree, through Tom Rolfe and Graustark."
"Although Mongoose matured quickly enough to win a Saratoga maiden and the Miller Genuine Draft Cradle S. in his first three starts as a juvenile, it isn't too surprising that he is now showing the best form of his life as a four-year-old.
Broad Brush is a tall, rangy individual standing 16.2 hands and Mongoose's dam Salty Gal is by Cox's Ridge, a 16.3-hand son of the 17.2-hand Best Turn. That said, size didn't prevent any of the three from showing very good form as three-year-olds, with Broad Brush gaining seven wins from 14 starts at that age, Cox's Ridge eight from 11 and Best Turn six from 10. All three, though, were arguably even better at four.
Broad Brush has the distinction of being inbred 3x3 to Turn-to, a stallion whose name is often linked to unsoundness. Fortunately, Broad Brush proved to have more in common with his sire Ack Ack, with both being sound enough to race 27 times during careers which featured victories in the Santa Anita H. over 1 1/4 miles.[/b]
Broad Brush's trainer Dick Small once revealed that, "I realized right then [after an early defeat] that this horse needed very stern, hard training; he needed fast works close to his races to run to his best. We worked him whenever we could because we knew we couldn't miss a single day."
Broad Brush's very tough constitution has allowed him to do well with mares which possess more Turn-to blood. His son Include, winner of the GI Pimlico Special, is inbred 4x4x4 to Turn-to, as are his Grade III-winning daughters Brushed Halory and Magic Broad, and so is Mongoose.
In fact, Mongoose has an extra line to two of Broad Brush's three great-grandsires: Broad Brush's dam, Hay Patcher, was a grand-daughter of Tom Rolfe, and so is Mongoose's second dam, Salt Spring. Interestingly another of Broad Brush's Grade I winners, Pompeii, also has two lines of Ribot in her pedigree, through Tom Rolfe and Graustark."
"Who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, but he who destroys a good book kills reason itself." John Milton.
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HiddenEchoFarm
- 2yo Maiden
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Pennsylvania
Thanks for the comments on Broad Brush & Ribot via Tom Rolfe. Ironically, I was looking at a Tom Rolfe-line mare just yesterday. And considering a Broad Brush mare [at least in theory] for my other stallion because I thought he'd do well with the Armageddon strain. Now I should probably think about that hypothetical Broad Brush mare more seriously.
Please -- keep sending suggestions & opinions on the kind of mare I should find for me to breed to this guy. And please, if you're not completely sick of helping, also check out my follow-up question at:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... hp?t=10550
where I'm looking for more advice. Specifically, I'm STILL wondering whether to keep him private or try to stand him to outside mares in general [given the amount of money involved in advertising in this stallion-heavy market]. That thread asks all the "should I" "At what price" type questions.
Again, keep the comments coming, both here & there. This is a great learning experience. I know what I like about this stallion. I just don't know what all others see.
Please -- keep sending suggestions & opinions on the kind of mare I should find for me to breed to this guy. And please, if you're not completely sick of helping, also check out my follow-up question at:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... hp?t=10550
where I'm looking for more advice. Specifically, I'm STILL wondering whether to keep him private or try to stand him to outside mares in general [given the amount of money involved in advertising in this stallion-heavy market]. That thread asks all the "should I" "At what price" type questions.
Again, keep the comments coming, both here & there. This is a great learning experience. I know what I like about this stallion. I just don't know what all others see.