I would a agree with Michael-good athletes sell. If you can find a mare with some pedigree who will throw athletic babies your three quarters of the way home.
Getting to productive, marketable stallions and raising them right is the complete picture to previous mentioned.
Need advice on buying first broodmare
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
Broodmare
Another suggestion for finding a good broodmare is to find a good and reliable trainer that can help you find young mares running in claiming races. Alot of good bloodlines are out there running in claimers - I would love to have the time to follow alot of them to see when they drop to a low price, but you should be able to find someone locally at a track near you who can help you out. We've claimed several horses this way - one was a stakes placed mare (Unbridled Song) and we also claimed a Saint Ballado mare. They've both been bred and have foals this year. Good luck - it is a fun business to be in but can also be very heartbreaking ....
clh
clh
Thats the difference that the TB breeders of today cant remember the way those TB of the past were bred who had soundness plus.
Oh, I disagree, I think there were plenty of unsound horses being bred back then-- BUT overall soundness was less affected because the gene pool had not evaporated yet. It's this careless indifference to conformation and soundness that got us to where we are now.
Selective linebreeding is beneficial, but one must outcross every few generations to produce hybrid vigor and keep these horses sound (cept there are few, if any, total outcross stallions left in the US) I would never "inbreed" which is breeding father/daughter, mother/son and full siblings. I also wouldn't inbreed marelines (breeding 2 horses with the same first dam).
Because of unmarketable pedigrees a lot of old lines are exported OR they are living in someones backyard as a pasture pet. I was recently offered a stallion for free that is a SON of Forli out of a daughter of Round Table-- a stallion that is 100 percent phalaris free. He was sitting in someone's backyard, a grand old gentlemen of 28 years. One of his daughter's lasted in the racing biz for 58 starts before retirement. One of his sons (a gelding) 102 starts. However his progeny were not as fast, and his pedigree was not as marketable as the Mr. P's and the Storm Cats etc etc., so he has very few offspring. Get him to a good mare from a speedy family and imagine the possibilities!
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
mares
Let me give a high five to CA Michael's premis: Be able to breed what the market wants. Right now that includes: 1) Athletic
2) Big 3) from a young mare who hasn't proven she CAN't do it 4) foal by a fashionable sire.
2) Big 3) from a young mare who hasn't proven she CAN't do it 4) foal by a fashionable sire.
-
mini's mom
- Allowance Winner
- Posts: 378
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:12 pm
- Location: amherst nh
- Contact:
mares
not being a big breeder - I like to look for mares with round table on the bottom (mares pedigree) - there is also a family (olympio) who has whitesburg in his pedigree and they make hard nocking runners - not very fashionable but solid racing horses - I like the vaguely noble mares as they are usually good grass horse producers - check out the feet first - no foot no horse!!
What tbrace (referring to what CA Michael said earlier) said:
I especially love the wisdom of tbrace's item #3 - I would edit thusly:
"3) from a young mare who hasn't proven she CAN't do it AND has an active family under her who might increase her value/that of her offspring without you having to accomplish anything"
FINALLY Everyone else has addressed your question with regard for what to look for in your prospective broodmare/broodmares - I would have you focus on something else: a couple of sheets of scratch paper.....read on.....
I would add that you really need to have a clear goal of what you're breeding for:
IF it is to sell - sell where/to whom and at what age/what point in your investment and for what expected result?
IF you goal is to breed a horse to race I would ask you why do that? Surely from following the posts on this forum for a while you realize that you can go to any number of auctions, buy privately, claim out of a race or participate in partnerships and cut out a great deal of the risks, beat the investment costs - sometimes signifigantly, broaden your choices etc. in getting a race horse that can run and win. If this remains your breeding goal you will want to ask yourself where your prospect will race? At the regional level, the national level, on grass or on dirt?
This question - Am I breeding to sell or to race are very basic to creating a business plan that will serve as not only a guide for your investment but - if you will make financial projections based upon the plan - as a yardstick of your progress towards the ulitmate goal both in terms of milestones achieved, the time it's taken to reach them vs. the plan and the costs of doing so.
I can not stress how enough how very important it is to know up front what it is you intend to accomplish by breeding a broodmare. It is only from a clear understanding of this goal you can then evaluate your resources: money, land, expertise, local market, relationships with stallion owners, trainers, etc., vets, tax advisor, insurance man....and or work with advisors you might help to guide/help you.
Next you must create a 1 yr, 3 yr, 5yr and 10yr plan (whatever timeline you have in mind) for achieving this goal and model what it is going to take to achieve your goal on paper. You should be modeling the time involved (Months and years it will take to get from broodmare to racehorse or sale candidate, the hours you will personally invest), the money you will need to invest and the use of land, equipment, facilities etc. necessary to achieve your goal. From that exercise you can begin to see - especially if you can make a budget projection that does not assume all pie in sky whether or not you're being realistic and where you might change your M.O. to achieve your goal, but in a differnt manner than you initially envisioined. (Examples of such modifications might include: leasing a mare rather than buying one to breed, or buying one already in foal to the stallion you admire, or foal sharing a quality mare bred to your choice of stallion).
When you create a plan you need to consider what you're going to do with the mare after she produces this first planned for foal - continue to carry her open or breed her again?, sell her open or in foal?, sell her/use her for pleasure/sport riding, or lease/sell her for TB-cross, sport horse breeding, lease her out to another breeder so as to keep her in production while you can focus financially on your first foal?
Once you have your business plan model worked out set it aside for at least a week - no peeking, no tweaking! Let it rest, occupy your mind on other issues. Then go back and without amending it/reviewing it yourself have someone, an advisor who has no vested interest in your goal/plan to look it over - someone with knowlege of the business, or of business in general and especially someone with knowlege of this sort of investment. You must listen to and make notes of their questions, their perception of shortcomings or potential pitfalls in your plan. Don't argue or discuss with them - LISTEN and MAKE NOTES. Put your plan - with these comments - away again and let it rest - again. Now a week or two later pull it out and make your final draft after studying their comments and criticisms cooly and unemotionally, without reaction. THis is very hard to do b/c most of us get into this 'business' to purse/satisfy a 'dream', the pursuit of an intangible hoped for outcome - it's very hard to accept the criticism of an outside, uninvolved, unvested reviewer when it is of something so personal to us.
At each step of the way in drafting your plan or model, i.e. at each month's milestone, and especially at these: foaling, weaning, yearling sale dates, 2YO in-training sale dates, etc. compare your costs to someone - a fictional person or real - who already owns such a mare, has access to such a stallion as you'd like to breed to, has the land to raise the mare and prospective foal upon, has the expertise to foal out the mare, to evaluate the health of the newborn foal and take immdiate steps if necessary if it is weak or has issues in the first few hours/days/weeks, the expertise and knowhow when it comes time to wean, to initially train/handle the weanlings and then later to prep them for sale...or to initially back and train the horse to bit and saddle. Finally the expertise of someone to condition the horse for race training and race training.
If you will yardstick your plan - and its projected costs to you - against that of someone in your area who has all the resources/skills you'll need, you'll have an idea of what the bottomline break-even point is in your area on investment in the sort of foal you want to breed.
More to the point you'll have a dollar for dollar model of the cost/investment differential between your foal/yearling/2YO/Maiden racehorse/etc. and the vast majority of those other Tbs of his/her crop he/ she will be compared to and evaluated against at sales, by trainers, in the saddling paddock, the DRF, etc.
To the extent you must rely on others for these resources, services, expertise your foal must be that much better than/more valuable than the the calculated 'baseline breakeven' point for yearlings, 2YOs in training, or whatever milepost of foal growth and development you expect to see a return from your investment of both time and money, the actualization of your dreams and hopes.
If you don't think all this financial modeling has any bearing on your goal/plan then you better be prepared to contact the various 'rescue', re-careering charities when you realize you've not achieved what you wanted, the horse (and it's dam/siblings) are costing you an arm and a leg and there's no market for this horse - other than the meat market or a motley crew of horse buyers who will take up your time, want to get your horse for free and offer you no assurance of the horse's ultimate welfare.
True there is no way you can ever imagine or "know" everything that is going to impact your goal but at least you can have a model of expectations and when you have to or choose to spend unexpected/unplanned for money perhaps you'll know just how out of whack you're are getting in terms of your investment with this foal from what it's bottom line base value might be and where you expected to be with him/her at this point in time. Then you can ask yourself if your enjoyment is "worth" what you're investing and/or whether it might be time to amend the goal or change your business plan. When you budget other things in your life surely you include an estimate of what you expect to spend on "entertainment", i.e. movies, dinner out, trips, sporting events, etc. Buying a mare to breed is either a business decision or an entertainment investment - so either way you should have a good idea of what you expect to invest/spend on it.
You must include an 'exit plan' and estimate the costs of that as well....for your sake and for the horse(s)' sakes...Doing so will allow you to sleep well at night and to be proud of your involvment in this sport/business.
Good luck and have fun - but most of all have a plan!!! May all your mares be fecund, your pregnancies' full term and uneventful, your foals sturdy, vigorous and very, very fasssst!!!!
Let me give a high five to CA Michael's premis: Be able to breed what the market wants. Right now that includes: 1) Athletic
2) Big 3) from a young mare who hasn't proven she CAN't do it 4) foal by a fashionable sire.
I especially love the wisdom of tbrace's item #3 - I would edit thusly:
"3) from a young mare who hasn't proven she CAN't do it AND has an active family under her who might increase her value/that of her offspring without you having to accomplish anything"
FINALLY Everyone else has addressed your question with regard for what to look for in your prospective broodmare/broodmares - I would have you focus on something else: a couple of sheets of scratch paper.....read on.....
I would add that you really need to have a clear goal of what you're breeding for:
IF it is to sell - sell where/to whom and at what age/what point in your investment and for what expected result?
IF you goal is to breed a horse to race I would ask you why do that? Surely from following the posts on this forum for a while you realize that you can go to any number of auctions, buy privately, claim out of a race or participate in partnerships and cut out a great deal of the risks, beat the investment costs - sometimes signifigantly, broaden your choices etc. in getting a race horse that can run and win. If this remains your breeding goal you will want to ask yourself where your prospect will race? At the regional level, the national level, on grass or on dirt?
This question - Am I breeding to sell or to race are very basic to creating a business plan that will serve as not only a guide for your investment but - if you will make financial projections based upon the plan - as a yardstick of your progress towards the ulitmate goal both in terms of milestones achieved, the time it's taken to reach them vs. the plan and the costs of doing so.
I can not stress how enough how very important it is to know up front what it is you intend to accomplish by breeding a broodmare. It is only from a clear understanding of this goal you can then evaluate your resources: money, land, expertise, local market, relationships with stallion owners, trainers, etc., vets, tax advisor, insurance man....and or work with advisors you might help to guide/help you.
Next you must create a 1 yr, 3 yr, 5yr and 10yr plan (whatever timeline you have in mind) for achieving this goal and model what it is going to take to achieve your goal on paper. You should be modeling the time involved (Months and years it will take to get from broodmare to racehorse or sale candidate, the hours you will personally invest), the money you will need to invest and the use of land, equipment, facilities etc. necessary to achieve your goal. From that exercise you can begin to see - especially if you can make a budget projection that does not assume all pie in sky whether or not you're being realistic and where you might change your M.O. to achieve your goal, but in a differnt manner than you initially envisioined. (Examples of such modifications might include: leasing a mare rather than buying one to breed, or buying one already in foal to the stallion you admire, or foal sharing a quality mare bred to your choice of stallion).
When you create a plan you need to consider what you're going to do with the mare after she produces this first planned for foal - continue to carry her open or breed her again?, sell her open or in foal?, sell her/use her for pleasure/sport riding, or lease/sell her for TB-cross, sport horse breeding, lease her out to another breeder so as to keep her in production while you can focus financially on your first foal?
Once you have your business plan model worked out set it aside for at least a week - no peeking, no tweaking! Let it rest, occupy your mind on other issues. Then go back and without amending it/reviewing it yourself have someone, an advisor who has no vested interest in your goal/plan to look it over - someone with knowlege of the business, or of business in general and especially someone with knowlege of this sort of investment. You must listen to and make notes of their questions, their perception of shortcomings or potential pitfalls in your plan. Don't argue or discuss with them - LISTEN and MAKE NOTES. Put your plan - with these comments - away again and let it rest - again. Now a week or two later pull it out and make your final draft after studying their comments and criticisms cooly and unemotionally, without reaction. THis is very hard to do b/c most of us get into this 'business' to purse/satisfy a 'dream', the pursuit of an intangible hoped for outcome - it's very hard to accept the criticism of an outside, uninvolved, unvested reviewer when it is of something so personal to us.
At each step of the way in drafting your plan or model, i.e. at each month's milestone, and especially at these: foaling, weaning, yearling sale dates, 2YO in-training sale dates, etc. compare your costs to someone - a fictional person or real - who already owns such a mare, has access to such a stallion as you'd like to breed to, has the land to raise the mare and prospective foal upon, has the expertise to foal out the mare, to evaluate the health of the newborn foal and take immdiate steps if necessary if it is weak or has issues in the first few hours/days/weeks, the expertise and knowhow when it comes time to wean, to initially train/handle the weanlings and then later to prep them for sale...or to initially back and train the horse to bit and saddle. Finally the expertise of someone to condition the horse for race training and race training.
If you will yardstick your plan - and its projected costs to you - against that of someone in your area who has all the resources/skills you'll need, you'll have an idea of what the bottomline break-even point is in your area on investment in the sort of foal you want to breed.
More to the point you'll have a dollar for dollar model of the cost/investment differential between your foal/yearling/2YO/Maiden racehorse/etc. and the vast majority of those other Tbs of his/her crop he/ she will be compared to and evaluated against at sales, by trainers, in the saddling paddock, the DRF, etc.
To the extent you must rely on others for these resources, services, expertise your foal must be that much better than/more valuable than the the calculated 'baseline breakeven' point for yearlings, 2YOs in training, or whatever milepost of foal growth and development you expect to see a return from your investment of both time and money, the actualization of your dreams and hopes.
If you don't think all this financial modeling has any bearing on your goal/plan then you better be prepared to contact the various 'rescue', re-careering charities when you realize you've not achieved what you wanted, the horse (and it's dam/siblings) are costing you an arm and a leg and there's no market for this horse - other than the meat market or a motley crew of horse buyers who will take up your time, want to get your horse for free and offer you no assurance of the horse's ultimate welfare.
True there is no way you can ever imagine or "know" everything that is going to impact your goal but at least you can have a model of expectations and when you have to or choose to spend unexpected/unplanned for money perhaps you'll know just how out of whack you're are getting in terms of your investment with this foal from what it's bottom line base value might be and where you expected to be with him/her at this point in time. Then you can ask yourself if your enjoyment is "worth" what you're investing and/or whether it might be time to amend the goal or change your business plan. When you budget other things in your life surely you include an estimate of what you expect to spend on "entertainment", i.e. movies, dinner out, trips, sporting events, etc. Buying a mare to breed is either a business decision or an entertainment investment - so either way you should have a good idea of what you expect to invest/spend on it.
You must include an 'exit plan' and estimate the costs of that as well....for your sake and for the horse(s)' sakes...Doing so will allow you to sleep well at night and to be proud of your involvment in this sport/business.
Good luck and have fun - but most of all have a plan!!! May all your mares be fecund, your pregnancies' full term and uneventful, your foals sturdy, vigorous and very, very fasssst!!!!
-
Douglas Brown
- Weanling
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:56 pm
- Location: Maryland
Great Advice jellac2!
I wish I had read this seven years ago when I was first starting.
Good stuff!
Good stuff!
Hi WGC,
Jellac’s post covers some important points that any person entering the breeding business should address. I’d add that if you will be satisfied ‘just breaking even’ save your time and money and watch the races.
1 – Enter the business with a clear idea to make a profit and a defined budget.
2 – Understand the financial obligations that each horse (and foal) carries.
3 – Have a clear plan of action with contingencies for injury or death of stock (etc.)
4 – Demand objectivity from yourself and others. If you don’t – get out immediately.
5 – Treat your horses with great care and respect.
6 – Don’t ‘fall in love’ with your horses or you’ll compromise your ability to make sound decisions.
I have to assume that your asking these questions indicates that you don’t have a lot of experience and I’ll respond in that light.
Getting started: (Adding to some of the other points).
Since you’re from Pennsylvania I assume that you intend to leverage the PA breeding program. That’s a good idea but you’ll not succeed commercially if you stick with the PA stallion roster that is weak and lacking in commercial appeal. You need to look to Kentucky (in general) as your source for stallions or don’t start in this venture at all. Kentucky is where the stallions are and that means greater commercial appeal.
You’ll need a farm both in PA and KY and you should start visiting them soon. Dirty horses may be well cared for but ones with prominent ribs and hips usually aren’t. Ammonia smell (it increases in hot weather) indicates that stalls aren’t being mucked as often as needed. Look for happy, well fed and (hopefully) dappled coats on the resident horses. Too many people underestimate the environmental factors that help create better sales individuals and it all starts at the farms.
Learn about the sales and what kind of horses sell best where and when. Then you can aim your foals (or mares) towards the sale that will serve you best and prepare them accordingly.
Find out van rates and availability to KY since a PA bred by a KY stallion will need (at least) 2 trips a year. Understand that your mare is one charge at a boarding farm and her suckling just a few dollars a day until it’s weaned when it generally becomes a full priced boarder. Remember that it costs the same to board a horse no matter what its’ value is.
What to know before you buy:
Unless you’re expert at every level of boarding, breeding, buying and selling horses you’ll be as successful as the team of people that you use to help you in your endeavor. Michael advises to beware of bloodstock agents and since that is my profession I’d advise care in selecting anyone that you trust in this business, it’s just good practice (personally I don’t trust stallion owners except for Rougelet and Madelyn
). The fact is that there are many good bloodstock advisors and you may find one useful – but be alert.
I disagree with Michael that friends are good sources because often they’re more interested in being given the role of expert and you may not have the acumen to judge their expertise. It’s also a good way to ruin a friendship – use them sparingly.
You’ll need to educate yourself in many areas concerning thoroughbreds to have a chance of making a profit other than by dumb luck. Ragsdaj properly advises that you should attend auctions. Get on the mailing lists for auction catalogs from Keeneland and Fasig-Tipton at the least (given that you’re in PA). Buy and read periodicals like Bloodhorse and Thoroughbredtimes and either will send you a Stallion Register with a subscription. You need to expertise yourself (as much as possible) on the commercial values in the marketplace. Use internet resources (there are many including this site).
Henthorn makes good points about the sales catalogs that you must become experienced at reading and analyzing as well as the fact that there is a lot more that’s not covered on the catalog page alone. There are resources that allow you to more in-depth research into a prospective broodmare, her foals and family available like the APR CD-Rom (gives you historical foal sales prices too). The Bloodhorse Stakes book can help you to understand the quality of black- type races that’s essential to understand breeding stock value. With some effort you may be able to uncover extra potential in a mare that you’re considering. Outwork the other guys.
Start yourself on a lifelong journey of evaluating conformation because the development of an ‘eye’ doesn’t happen overnight. There are subtle differences in physical evaluation of mares, pre-race and mature racing stock so start with mares and yearlings (especially if that’s what you intend to sell).
Sometimes insurance is a wise investment to protect against catastrophic loss. There are many types of equine insurance available – familiarize yourself with the products and cost and then use them as needed.
What to look for:
It’s a changing marketplace and Michael is dead on that conformation is king. Pedigree and race record are now amplifiers. Your chances of getting a well conformed foal start with well conformed parents – and sometimes that costs. A badly conformed foal will sell poorly if at all. All conformational faults reduce the value of a foal but some more than others. Bloodhorse has had round table discussions where advisors talk about what faults they can forgive and those that they can’t and since these are advisors to buyers their thoughts have value. Learn the difference between conformation faults and those related to racing or just getting older. Mares that have carried foals may start to toe when it wasn’t a genetic fault at birth.
Commercial appeal is a lot like electrical current with conformation being voltage while pedigree and performance are amperage. You still need some amperage so unless the mare is accomplished (stakes-placed or better) you don’t want a daughter of stallions that lack commercial appeal or there’ll be no juice (even with a well conformed foal).
The thoroughbred market is driven by hope and perception so your mare must be perceived as having the potential to produce quality runners for her foals to fetch good prices. If she’s had foals that haven’t performed then there will be a diminished perception of her next foal.
Everyone wants a stallion with proven runners and commercial appeal at a reasonable price (say $10,000) but the stallion farms don’t give much away. You’ve said that you want a modest priced broodmare but you don’t specify what ‘modest’ means. If your mare has enough appeal there are creative ways to get your mare to more expensive stallions. Buy the best mare that you can afford but remember that they don’t come with suggested retail stickers.
Start projecting stallion value and that means trying to pinpoint what their market cache and farm price will be at the time that you’re selling your foal by him. If you select a stallion whose price and image suffer in the 2+ years between mating and selling then you lose money.
Conformation:
For commercial sales you must buy well conformed mares and don’t trade off too much for pedigree or race record.
Race record:
Race records should be evaluated for the best class that she was competitive in, how long she raced and average company competed against. A simple formula to give you approximate racing class across a career is:
Earnings / ((Wins * .6) + (2nds + 3rds * .2)) = AveragePurseRacedFor
Thus a horse with a record of 20 – 2 – 2 – 2 with $50,000 in earnings would have competed (on average) in races with purses of @$25,000.
At Keeneland you can get free reports about the sale mares without charge (not at other sales). I want to see the PPs of mares because not all $35,000 claiming races are the same – evaluate her competition if you can.
Pedigree:
There’s so much nuance in pedigree selection that it would need a book for discussion but here are some ideas. Value the first generation as 60%, second as 30% and third (and on) as 10%.
Look past the catalog for mares that have sisters in the breeding shed with either active or impending runners. Examine the fertility of the family (Henthorn mentions this). If the mare is older then she must have already had success from her own foals.
Sparta makes some very good points that I’ll add to (sounds pretty wise to me
).
1 – Remember that consignors are salesmen working for the horse seller.
2 – If you buy a mare that has already had foals then you’re buying a cull and in that case you’ll need to research her foals. A mare that has 2 young and unraced foals tells you that the previous owner probably didn’t like what he saw. Unproven mares (maidens or expecting first foals) have the advantage of the unknown.
Acquisition:
You can acquire mares at sales, privately or even by claiming them off the track (as CLH mentions).
At auctions it would seem that you are paying market price but if you’re the only one bidding against a reserve then you can easily overpay. You need some expertise or advice to buy privately. In both ways you can have the mare checked by vets or advisors.
Claiming off the track is a good method to acquire a broodmare as a value but you can’t do more than a distant visual check before purchase (and no vet check). Technically you’re claiming a racehorse without any warrantee about her breeding soundness. You will need a trainer to claim the horse for you but I wouldn’t use most trainers to advise me on what mare to claim (as a broodmare). I believe that you’ll find that most trainers will not look at a mares’ conformation from a breeding perspective. They look for lameness and potential sources of unsoundness rather than congenital issues that could be passed on to offspring. Secondly few trainers have a deep enough knowledge of pedigree or commercial values to offer proper advice in this regard. There are exceptions.
Lagniappe:
Do a sanity check to make certain that your mare isn’t an anomaly that will be hard to breed to. Someone once bred Mr. Prospector to his own daughter and this would present problems.
Make sure to have the mare vet checked for breeding soundness whether purchased at a sale or privately. You can’t vet check a mare claimed off the track.
Unless you’re dead set on specific bloodlines I’d find a good mare and go from there.
Best of luck.
Regards,
Pete
Jellac’s post covers some important points that any person entering the breeding business should address. I’d add that if you will be satisfied ‘just breaking even’ save your time and money and watch the races.
1 – Enter the business with a clear idea to make a profit and a defined budget.
2 – Understand the financial obligations that each horse (and foal) carries.
3 – Have a clear plan of action with contingencies for injury or death of stock (etc.)
4 – Demand objectivity from yourself and others. If you don’t – get out immediately.
5 – Treat your horses with great care and respect.
6 – Don’t ‘fall in love’ with your horses or you’ll compromise your ability to make sound decisions.
I have to assume that your asking these questions indicates that you don’t have a lot of experience and I’ll respond in that light.
Getting started: (Adding to some of the other points).
Since you’re from Pennsylvania I assume that you intend to leverage the PA breeding program. That’s a good idea but you’ll not succeed commercially if you stick with the PA stallion roster that is weak and lacking in commercial appeal. You need to look to Kentucky (in general) as your source for stallions or don’t start in this venture at all. Kentucky is where the stallions are and that means greater commercial appeal.
You’ll need a farm both in PA and KY and you should start visiting them soon. Dirty horses may be well cared for but ones with prominent ribs and hips usually aren’t. Ammonia smell (it increases in hot weather) indicates that stalls aren’t being mucked as often as needed. Look for happy, well fed and (hopefully) dappled coats on the resident horses. Too many people underestimate the environmental factors that help create better sales individuals and it all starts at the farms.
Learn about the sales and what kind of horses sell best where and when. Then you can aim your foals (or mares) towards the sale that will serve you best and prepare them accordingly.
Find out van rates and availability to KY since a PA bred by a KY stallion will need (at least) 2 trips a year. Understand that your mare is one charge at a boarding farm and her suckling just a few dollars a day until it’s weaned when it generally becomes a full priced boarder. Remember that it costs the same to board a horse no matter what its’ value is.
What to know before you buy:
Unless you’re expert at every level of boarding, breeding, buying and selling horses you’ll be as successful as the team of people that you use to help you in your endeavor. Michael advises to beware of bloodstock agents and since that is my profession I’d advise care in selecting anyone that you trust in this business, it’s just good practice (personally I don’t trust stallion owners except for Rougelet and Madelyn
). The fact is that there are many good bloodstock advisors and you may find one useful – but be alert.
I disagree with Michael that friends are good sources because often they’re more interested in being given the role of expert and you may not have the acumen to judge their expertise. It’s also a good way to ruin a friendship – use them sparingly.
You’ll need to educate yourself in many areas concerning thoroughbreds to have a chance of making a profit other than by dumb luck. Ragsdaj properly advises that you should attend auctions. Get on the mailing lists for auction catalogs from Keeneland and Fasig-Tipton at the least (given that you’re in PA). Buy and read periodicals like Bloodhorse and Thoroughbredtimes and either will send you a Stallion Register with a subscription. You need to expertise yourself (as much as possible) on the commercial values in the marketplace. Use internet resources (there are many including this site).
Henthorn makes good points about the sales catalogs that you must become experienced at reading and analyzing as well as the fact that there is a lot more that’s not covered on the catalog page alone. There are resources that allow you to more in-depth research into a prospective broodmare, her foals and family available like the APR CD-Rom (gives you historical foal sales prices too). The Bloodhorse Stakes book can help you to understand the quality of black- type races that’s essential to understand breeding stock value. With some effort you may be able to uncover extra potential in a mare that you’re considering. Outwork the other guys.
Start yourself on a lifelong journey of evaluating conformation because the development of an ‘eye’ doesn’t happen overnight. There are subtle differences in physical evaluation of mares, pre-race and mature racing stock so start with mares and yearlings (especially if that’s what you intend to sell).
Sometimes insurance is a wise investment to protect against catastrophic loss. There are many types of equine insurance available – familiarize yourself with the products and cost and then use them as needed.
What to look for:
It’s a changing marketplace and Michael is dead on that conformation is king. Pedigree and race record are now amplifiers. Your chances of getting a well conformed foal start with well conformed parents – and sometimes that costs. A badly conformed foal will sell poorly if at all. All conformational faults reduce the value of a foal but some more than others. Bloodhorse has had round table discussions where advisors talk about what faults they can forgive and those that they can’t and since these are advisors to buyers their thoughts have value. Learn the difference between conformation faults and those related to racing or just getting older. Mares that have carried foals may start to toe when it wasn’t a genetic fault at birth.
Commercial appeal is a lot like electrical current with conformation being voltage while pedigree and performance are amperage. You still need some amperage so unless the mare is accomplished (stakes-placed or better) you don’t want a daughter of stallions that lack commercial appeal or there’ll be no juice (even with a well conformed foal).
The thoroughbred market is driven by hope and perception so your mare must be perceived as having the potential to produce quality runners for her foals to fetch good prices. If she’s had foals that haven’t performed then there will be a diminished perception of her next foal.
Everyone wants a stallion with proven runners and commercial appeal at a reasonable price (say $10,000) but the stallion farms don’t give much away. You’ve said that you want a modest priced broodmare but you don’t specify what ‘modest’ means. If your mare has enough appeal there are creative ways to get your mare to more expensive stallions. Buy the best mare that you can afford but remember that they don’t come with suggested retail stickers.
Start projecting stallion value and that means trying to pinpoint what their market cache and farm price will be at the time that you’re selling your foal by him. If you select a stallion whose price and image suffer in the 2+ years between mating and selling then you lose money.
Conformation:
For commercial sales you must buy well conformed mares and don’t trade off too much for pedigree or race record.
Race record:
Race records should be evaluated for the best class that she was competitive in, how long she raced and average company competed against. A simple formula to give you approximate racing class across a career is:
Earnings / ((Wins * .6) + (2nds + 3rds * .2)) = AveragePurseRacedFor
Thus a horse with a record of 20 – 2 – 2 – 2 with $50,000 in earnings would have competed (on average) in races with purses of @$25,000.
At Keeneland you can get free reports about the sale mares without charge (not at other sales). I want to see the PPs of mares because not all $35,000 claiming races are the same – evaluate her competition if you can.
Pedigree:
There’s so much nuance in pedigree selection that it would need a book for discussion but here are some ideas. Value the first generation as 60%, second as 30% and third (and on) as 10%.
Look past the catalog for mares that have sisters in the breeding shed with either active or impending runners. Examine the fertility of the family (Henthorn mentions this). If the mare is older then she must have already had success from her own foals.
Sparta makes some very good points that I’ll add to (sounds pretty wise to me
).
1 – Remember that consignors are salesmen working for the horse seller.
2 – If you buy a mare that has already had foals then you’re buying a cull and in that case you’ll need to research her foals. A mare that has 2 young and unraced foals tells you that the previous owner probably didn’t like what he saw. Unproven mares (maidens or expecting first foals) have the advantage of the unknown.
Acquisition:
You can acquire mares at sales, privately or even by claiming them off the track (as CLH mentions).
At auctions it would seem that you are paying market price but if you’re the only one bidding against a reserve then you can easily overpay. You need some expertise or advice to buy privately. In both ways you can have the mare checked by vets or advisors.
Claiming off the track is a good method to acquire a broodmare as a value but you can’t do more than a distant visual check before purchase (and no vet check). Technically you’re claiming a racehorse without any warrantee about her breeding soundness. You will need a trainer to claim the horse for you but I wouldn’t use most trainers to advise me on what mare to claim (as a broodmare). I believe that you’ll find that most trainers will not look at a mares’ conformation from a breeding perspective. They look for lameness and potential sources of unsoundness rather than congenital issues that could be passed on to offspring. Secondly few trainers have a deep enough knowledge of pedigree or commercial values to offer proper advice in this regard. There are exceptions.
Lagniappe:
Do a sanity check to make certain that your mare isn’t an anomaly that will be hard to breed to. Someone once bred Mr. Prospector to his own daughter and this would present problems.
Make sure to have the mare vet checked for breeding soundness whether purchased at a sale or privately. You can’t vet check a mare claimed off the track.
Unless you’re dead set on specific bloodlines I’d find a good mare and go from there.
Best of luck.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Wow, great advice!
PETE Welcome Back!!
If I might sprinkle a touch more water on this subject:
I may have already said this, but price is not always a true reflection of quality. Sometimes mares might not be culls, as in those available through estate dispersals. There can be very good buys had at breeding stock sales.. oftentimes there are young mares in foal to new stallions, actually for sale by a stallion owner or season holder. Of course it is up to the discriminating buyer to determine if (a) the mare was even suitable for the stallion and (b) if the resulting foal will have a desirable pedigree and good conformation.
Call me odd, but for me one of the fundamentals in my program is to personally inspect the stallion before I send my mare to him. If you head to the Keeneland sales, oftentimes the stud farms have open houses around that time and it is time well spent to head out "sightseeing" to check out the true size and conformation of stallions you might be interested in.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Thoroughbreds, and good luck with your ventures.
PETE Welcome Back!!
If I might sprinkle a touch more water on this subject:
I may have already said this, but price is not always a true reflection of quality. Sometimes mares might not be culls, as in those available through estate dispersals. There can be very good buys had at breeding stock sales.. oftentimes there are young mares in foal to new stallions, actually for sale by a stallion owner or season holder. Of course it is up to the discriminating buyer to determine if (a) the mare was even suitable for the stallion and (b) if the resulting foal will have a desirable pedigree and good conformation.
Call me odd, but for me one of the fundamentals in my program is to personally inspect the stallion before I send my mare to him. If you head to the Keeneland sales, oftentimes the stud farms have open houses around that time and it is time well spent to head out "sightseeing" to check out the true size and conformation of stallions you might be interested in.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Thoroughbreds, and good luck with your ventures.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Hi Madelyn,
Good and important point. What you pay for a horse is NOT what its’ worth - what others are willing to pay for it is.
You can purchase a broodmare for $7,000 and sell it for $30,000 or the reverse. The racing exploits of related horses will affect the value of a mare. A mares’ value is on a constant (slow) decline but will increase with positive events and decrease with negative ones. This is part of the fun of owning a mare and it’s important to be objective in evaluating the impact of the events. If your mare’s sire (broodmare sire) gets a minor SW there’s little of any effect but of your mare’s full brother winning a minor stakes is wonderful. Valuing mares (initially) and over time (with its’ subtleties) is an important skill to developed.
I think you’re taking the word ‘cull’ negatively and I only use it for clarity. Any mare can be a cull and certainly if the previous owner has seen her foals and is selling you must be aware of that. It’s important to evaluate the seller’s intent on any mare you’re considering. I don’t shy away from buying in-foal mares but I try to understand why she’s being sold.
One of my first posts on this forum was about ‘rumination’ where I visualize the stallion and mare and try to imagine what the resulting foal might look like. You’re breeding blind without knowing what the stallion looks like and I don’t recommend relying on the opinion of others unless their opinions are tried and true. There are differences in evaluation of stallion and mare conformation and one of the best ‘eyes’ for mares that I know is not a good eye for stallions.
A quick list of precedence:
1 – Qualities
2 – Fertility
3 – Production and sales (if known)
4 - Purchase
5 – Ongoing evaluation and disposition (keep or sell)
After you have determined that a mare has conformation, race, pedigree and price qualities that are acceptable you must examine the fertility record of her family. It’s great to a ‘bargain’ mare but she’s no bargain if she isn’t a reliable breeder that can put a live foal on the ground.
The bloodlines of the mare are relative if she has the other requisite qualities and the names listed in posts on this thread are opinions. It’s hard to find mares that fill all criteria and being set on certain names in the pedigree narrows the field considerably. If you’re breeding to a specific stallion (let’s say that you owned a share) then the names in the pedigree move up in importance.
Break down the mares’ record into breeding, sales (by foal year sold) and production because they’re different. As an example:
Lilies Cook’N, (f. 1992 by Sejm – Beaty Sark by Deputy Minister)
She had 8 straight foals with the first being foaled in April and the last in January. She moved up every year and that implies 1 cover per year so expenses are lower.
Her foals undersold their stallions until recently when she was a proven producer but results improved if sold later with decent results at 2yo sales.
Her first 5 foals all won and were sound hard knockers but none of stakes quality.
I rate her as an A++ breeder (best) and C+ producer. I just do the math on the sales results.
Finally, continually re-evaluate her value, especially her ability to deliver what you need to be successful. If her first foal doesn’t have the qualities that you need to be successful then it might be time to move her. Michael mentions that you’ll have to live with the purchase for years and this is true but you can and should sell any mare that isn’t performing as you like. Don’t ever take it personally. I kiss all my mares on the head whether they’ve given me sales toppers or dogs. Remember the adage, “Better to cry about the horse you sold than the one you didn’t”.
How’s Trick doing?
Regards,
Pete
I may have already said this, but price is not always a true reflection of quality.
Good and important point. What you pay for a horse is NOT what its’ worth - what others are willing to pay for it is.
You can purchase a broodmare for $7,000 and sell it for $30,000 or the reverse. The racing exploits of related horses will affect the value of a mare. A mares’ value is on a constant (slow) decline but will increase with positive events and decrease with negative ones. This is part of the fun of owning a mare and it’s important to be objective in evaluating the impact of the events. If your mare’s sire (broodmare sire) gets a minor SW there’s little of any effect but of your mare’s full brother winning a minor stakes is wonderful. Valuing mares (initially) and over time (with its’ subtleties) is an important skill to developed.
Sometimes mares might not be culls, as in those available through estate dispersals. There can be very good buys had at breeding stock sales.. oftentimes there are young mares in foal to new stallions, actually for sale by a stallion owner or season holder.
I think you’re taking the word ‘cull’ negatively and I only use it for clarity. Any mare can be a cull and certainly if the previous owner has seen her foals and is selling you must be aware of that. It’s important to evaluate the seller’s intent on any mare you’re considering. I don’t shy away from buying in-foal mares but I try to understand why she’s being sold.
Call me odd, but for me one of the fundamentals in my program is to personally inspect the stallion before I send my mare to him. If you head to the Keeneland sales, oftentimes the stud farms have open houses around that time and it is time well spent to head out "sightseeing" to check out the true size and conformation of stallions you might be interested in.
One of my first posts on this forum was about ‘rumination’ where I visualize the stallion and mare and try to imagine what the resulting foal might look like. You’re breeding blind without knowing what the stallion looks like and I don’t recommend relying on the opinion of others unless their opinions are tried and true. There are differences in evaluation of stallion and mare conformation and one of the best ‘eyes’ for mares that I know is not a good eye for stallions.
A quick list of precedence:
1 – Qualities
2 – Fertility
3 – Production and sales (if known)
4 - Purchase
5 – Ongoing evaluation and disposition (keep or sell)
After you have determined that a mare has conformation, race, pedigree and price qualities that are acceptable you must examine the fertility record of her family. It’s great to a ‘bargain’ mare but she’s no bargain if she isn’t a reliable breeder that can put a live foal on the ground.
The bloodlines of the mare are relative if she has the other requisite qualities and the names listed in posts on this thread are opinions. It’s hard to find mares that fill all criteria and being set on certain names in the pedigree narrows the field considerably. If you’re breeding to a specific stallion (let’s say that you owned a share) then the names in the pedigree move up in importance.
Break down the mares’ record into breeding, sales (by foal year sold) and production because they’re different. As an example:
Lilies Cook’N, (f. 1992 by Sejm – Beaty Sark by Deputy Minister)
She had 8 straight foals with the first being foaled in April and the last in January. She moved up every year and that implies 1 cover per year so expenses are lower.
Her foals undersold their stallions until recently when she was a proven producer but results improved if sold later with decent results at 2yo sales.
Her first 5 foals all won and were sound hard knockers but none of stakes quality.
I rate her as an A++ breeder (best) and C+ producer. I just do the math on the sales results.
Finally, continually re-evaluate her value, especially her ability to deliver what you need to be successful. If her first foal doesn’t have the qualities that you need to be successful then it might be time to move her. Michael mentions that you’ll have to live with the purchase for years and this is true but you can and should sell any mare that isn’t performing as you like. Don’t ever take it personally. I kiss all my mares on the head whether they’ve given me sales toppers or dogs. Remember the adage, “Better to cry about the horse you sold than the one you didn’t”.
How’s Trick doing?
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
-
Douglas Brown
- Weanling
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:56 pm
- Location: Maryland
Rumination
Pete said: "One of my first posts on this forum was about ‘rumination’ where I visualize the stallion and mare and try to imagine what the resulting foal might look like."
Pete,
That is the hardest thing for me do because stallions are so much bigger than mares for the most part. Any suggestions on how best to do this?
Doug
Pete,
That is the hardest thing for me do because stallions are so much bigger than mares for the most part. Any suggestions on how best to do this?
Doug
Hi Doug,
The failure of most (small) breeders fail begins with lack of objectivity. They believe what they are told about their foals and don’t see the flaws. Farms, consignors, friends and most others are sensitive to your feelings and won’t point out flaws least they lose your business or friendship.
I make it clear to anyone that I deal with that I want honesty first and foremost. If they believe that my foal is flawed then I insist that they tell me. It’s then incumbent on me to react with appreciation even if I don’t agree. Time will prove them a good ‘eye’ or not.
If you fail to be objective then you can’t make informed decisions. A friend (I ‘fired’ them as a client) insists on misinterpreting what they’re told about their horses so that they are stunned by poor sales results and begin blaming everyone else. Your success starts with you.
If you’re told that your mare is back at the knee then it should be easier to see for yourself. Understand the problem and compare it to both well conformed and flawed characteristics on other horses. You’ll build your ‘eye’ this way.
A common mistake is to believe that you should look for stallions that are opposite of your mare. I’ve even had a client want to breed to a stallion that was toed-in because her mare toed-out! The chances would have increased that the foal would have had one flaw or the other and not been correct. Where your mare is not correct you want the stallion to be as ideal as possible. If you have a 15.1 mare with decent bone and flesh then choose a larger but NOT huge stallion with adequate flesh and bone. Evolution not revolution seems to build better foals. With critical characteristics I’ll want the stallion to be as correct as possible and if you’ve done your homework then your mare will be acceptable in these areas as well. There are no guarantees. I grew up with a beautiful girl who had homely parents and she would go into deep depressions when asked if they were her birth parents (she knew what they meant).
Jellac’s post in this thread is advising rumination. Whenever possible mull over your horse business decisions and don’t act impulsively. You will need to make some fast decisions in some cases.
When I ‘ruminate’ all I’m doing is picturing my mare in my head and making a mental connection with a stallion whose I image I usually have (already) in a ‘database’. I don’t overlay or force them together and over time I begin to get a feeling and even an image of a foal. I can do this because I have clear and objective impressions of my mare.
Rumination is different from positive mental imaging because I’m only interested in what comes out of the connection I made between the images. I will make positive mental images of horses going through the sales ring or being correct healthy foals but that’s different.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Pete
The failure of most (small) breeders fail begins with lack of objectivity. They believe what they are told about their foals and don’t see the flaws. Farms, consignors, friends and most others are sensitive to your feelings and won’t point out flaws least they lose your business or friendship.
I make it clear to anyone that I deal with that I want honesty first and foremost. If they believe that my foal is flawed then I insist that they tell me. It’s then incumbent on me to react with appreciation even if I don’t agree. Time will prove them a good ‘eye’ or not.
If you fail to be objective then you can’t make informed decisions. A friend (I ‘fired’ them as a client) insists on misinterpreting what they’re told about their horses so that they are stunned by poor sales results and begin blaming everyone else. Your success starts with you.
If you’re told that your mare is back at the knee then it should be easier to see for yourself. Understand the problem and compare it to both well conformed and flawed characteristics on other horses. You’ll build your ‘eye’ this way.
A common mistake is to believe that you should look for stallions that are opposite of your mare. I’ve even had a client want to breed to a stallion that was toed-in because her mare toed-out! The chances would have increased that the foal would have had one flaw or the other and not been correct. Where your mare is not correct you want the stallion to be as ideal as possible. If you have a 15.1 mare with decent bone and flesh then choose a larger but NOT huge stallion with adequate flesh and bone. Evolution not revolution seems to build better foals. With critical characteristics I’ll want the stallion to be as correct as possible and if you’ve done your homework then your mare will be acceptable in these areas as well. There are no guarantees. I grew up with a beautiful girl who had homely parents and she would go into deep depressions when asked if they were her birth parents (she knew what they meant).
Jellac’s post in this thread is advising rumination. Whenever possible mull over your horse business decisions and don’t act impulsively. You will need to make some fast decisions in some cases.
When I ‘ruminate’ all I’m doing is picturing my mare in my head and making a mental connection with a stallion whose I image I usually have (already) in a ‘database’. I don’t overlay or force them together and over time I begin to get a feeling and even an image of a foal. I can do this because I have clear and objective impressions of my mare.
Rumination is different from positive mental imaging because I’m only interested in what comes out of the connection I made between the images. I will make positive mental images of horses going through the sales ring or being correct healthy foals but that’s different.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Buying first broodmare
Ditto Douglas Brown - wish I'd read this three years ago, might have had more money in my own pocket instead of some else's pocket 
Pete wrote:Madelyn wrote:Sometimes mares might not be culls, as in those available through estate dispersals. There can be very good buys had at breeding stock sales.. oftentimes there are young mares in foal to new stallions, actually for sale by a stallion owner or season holder.
I think you’re taking the word ‘cull’ negatively and I only use it for clarity. Any mare can be a cull and certainly if the previous owner has seen her foals and is selling you must be aware of that. It’s important to evaluate the seller’s intent on any mare you’re considering. I don’t shy away from buying in-foal mares but I try to understand why she’s being sold.
Well I think of cull as something along the lines of "one man's trash.." so that connotation could be negative. On the other hand, it all depends on whose "culls" are there for the grabbing.
Pete wrote:
How’s Trick doing?
Regards,
Pete
Rocky is splendid, another year where he got every one of his mares in foal. Perhaps someday he will have to make the trek from my little farm to one of the big Lexington palaces where they will be able to fill his book. It is a daunting task for a small farm owner.
His babies were all correct and perfect out of the box.. no knock knees, no sickle hocks, all perfect and correct (in many cases far better than their dams). Every one looks like nearly a photocopy of its sire. The real stunners in the crowd are the May 25th filly out of Runaway Rubi who is bigger than her five-month old siblings, and the orphan colt out of Schwank (Feb 28th) who is already 14 hands high. And the colt out of Valiant Spirit.... these will probably be my "sale babies"... barn names are Ruby Two Shoes, Furball and Fang.
The yearlings I came home with last year (I can't call it buying, upset price and nice individuals) have nearly all been sold off to trainers and are getting ready to race. Each one has turned out to be talented and show promise. I have just the Skipaway colt left from that group (I'm going to wait until he is 3, still too gangly) and the gorgeous Shadeed colt out of Schwank. He leaves next week to start in a training partnership.
Rocky send his love far and wide, and wonders, do you have any mares for him?
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....