Mating suggestions for Miss Ardent in FL - $7,500K or less

[Sam]

Werk only recommends stallions whose owners have paid his extortion fee.

Here we go again

Never take the word of a man with a personal vendetta against a company because they set their lawyers on him to force him to pay his bills.

[CA Michael]

Get your facts right, Sammy.

I told Werk his "research" was worthless. I sent it back to him, with collected dust at no extra charge.

$350 a pound for fertilizer was too pricey for me.

[Sam]

Get your facts right, Sammy.

I told Werk his "research" was worthless. I sent it back to him, with collected dust at no extra charge.

$350 a pound for fertilizer was too pricey for me.

This would be the item that you had, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, for well over a year without paying for.

Possession of an item you didn't pay for is generally considered THEFT.

Again, never take the word of a man who has a personal vendetta as his stand point.

[CA Michael]

Yes, you're right---it sat in its box, forgotten, until your pal called me. And then I returned it, but not without Werk telling me flat out, "I will NEVER recommend your horse again!" And he hasn't.

In spite of unknowing clients who think he is looking out for THEIR best interests, Mr. Werk continues to use his own vendetta against me by not recommending my stallion. Therein lies the greatest defect of Werk Rating Systems--his clients receive information ONLY on horses whose owners have paid him the $1,000 ransom (or is it more now?) for his "Stallion Compatibility Book".

It's a rancid operation. Breeders beware.

[Sam]

Yes, you're right---it sat in its box

For over a year. Unpaid for. And at least three notices went out before you were sent to collections. That equals theft to most people.

[myheartsezyes]

witherbee,

Werk only recommends stallions whose owners have paid his extortion fee. His letter ratings are based on samples so small and irrelevant as to make the whole exercise a colossal waste of your time and money. In spite of their zero value, they may, however, give you some peace of mind. That is the mission of the Werk Nicks--to make you feel good.

Pardon me but I think you and sam should take your Werk issue in your own thread I see it having nothing to do with Miss Ardent

[CA Michael]

Myheartsezyes, actually the mare owner did ask for opinions about the Werk ratings. I agree, though, that we have rehashed his trash long enough here. Sam, if you want to continue your Werkspeak sound bites on another thread, go for it!

[witherbee]

I've been checking out some of the stallions recommended. Concerto is a nice stallion, but we're probably more interested in Freshman sires for their sale value...

As for Werk, I do see some value in it and we are using it to a certain extent. My main complaint is that it is more sire based than dam based. I am trying to learn more and need to read up on Tessio and check out the GSV on Pedigree Query. Have to renew my membership there. There is so much that I don't understand, so it's very helpful reading your suggestions on my mares as well as the other threads on breeding. I just wish that there were one or two tools to use that were easier to understand (I checked out the Tessio software and my head nearly exploded just looking at all of the columns, fields and colors lol). I guess if it was easy we'd all have homebred Derby winners!

What do you folks think about Trippi for either Miss Ardent or Not a Nice Girl??

[FOS]

hi Witherbee

...we're probably more interested in Freshman sires for their sale value...

If you want a fresh face with a potentially big upside, I strongly suggest (as I have to others before) that you consider the following three.

Full Mandate - He's got runners in 2007, but (based on your freshman sires comment) I sense he might be excluded from your short-list for now (at least until he makes his case as a racehorse sire)...but I submit that he is a grand individual...with lots of body, bone and substance...and he is VERY correct up front.

Omega Code - He could fly (winning a stakes race going 6f in 1:07 3/5 as a 2-yo), and he's VERY nicely made (including an outstanding front end). I've seen a good number of his offspring, and in general (of the ones I've seen anyway) they range (to my way of thinking) from good to exceptional individuals...with most in the very good category (and for what it's worth, they look like athletes). Based on OC's $7,500 stud fee, arguably they seemed to have been quite well received (in general) at the recent OBS October sale, ranging up to $100k. In general, foals by Omega Code appear to have good bone, plenty of leg under them, a strong set of quarters...and VERY good front ends.

Indian Ocean - His first foals arrive in 2007; and I describe him as a LOT of horse. He stands approx 16-1+, had brilliant speed (1:14 and change when he broke his maiden going 6 1/2 furlongs on the dirt)...plus he defeated TOP company when he won the 1 1/16 mile G3-Affirmed H (on the dirt at Hollywood Park) defeating star Surf Cat and finishing 7 lengths ahead of Buzzards Bay (who in his previous start won the G1-Santa Anita Derby over eventual G1-Kentucky Derby winner Giacomo and G1-Breeders Cup Juvenile star Wilko). IO is a very athletic-looking horse, an exceptional walker...and is beautifully proportioned and VERY correct (to my way of thinking). What a front end...WOW...and I submit that his hind legs and hocks are equally impressive. I expect he'll not only sire lots of runners with plenty of speed...but also many that likely will have the ability to get two turns...threaten the classics...and/or compete at the top versus older horses. He offers a lot (to my way of thinking).

I understand that Omega Code, Full Mandate and Indian Ocean have each received very strong support, and the three seem to be well managed. Full Mandate and Omega Code by Hartley-Derenzo (who last managed Successful Appeal and Songandaprayer before their moves to Kentucky) and Indian Ocean by Bridlewood (who started Stormy Atlantic, who now thrives in Kentucky also). These farms have proven they can get the job done.

When it comes to young, well conformed thoroughbred stallions with good bone and outstanding front ends (that also stand in Florida at farms that have sent stallions off to continue to thrive in Kentucky)...I would place Full Mandate...Omega Code...and Indian Ocean at the head of the class. Taking that one step further, I would also describe Indian Ocean and Omega Code as very athletic types...with Indian Ocean being particularly fluid (almost cat-like) in the way he moves.

As I've stated before (and I make no bones about it), it would not surprise me if one or two or possibly all three of these young stallions end up in the Blue Grass.

Respectfully

[witherbee]

I have seen Indian Ocean several times - we considered him last year. He is handsome, but I must say I'm not as impressed with him as you are - seemed a bit slight and smallish. There hasn't been a lot of buszz about him either. I was very impressed when I first saw him at Bridlewood, but at the Stallion Show at OBS next to all of the other stallions, he just didn't have the presence or size that we wanted for the mare that nicked to him. I will take a look at him again this year as I did like him and Bridlewood does a super job.

Omega Code's weanlings were supported very well at the Oct sale, but I'm concerned that it was all H&D and no outside buyers. Also, we had issues with trying to breed to Roar of the Tiger last year (who I LOVE for one of my mares), so are reluctant to go back. Full Mandate is also there, and I do think that he might not be the best physical match for the mare that he goes to the best - she could use some refinement. I do like him, but need to see if we'd be better off using him for one of our other mares.

Thanks for the suggestions - we're definitely keeping our options open and will check them all out again. Might was well attend all of the stallion shows - good food and the possibility of winning a free season lol! .

[FOS]

hi witherbee

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and comments.

I have seen Indian Ocean several times - we considered him last year. He is handsome, but I must say I'm not as impressed with him as you are - seemed a bit slight and smallish.

To each his own...but I must say, your description slight and smallish surprises me.

As to slight (your word), the only thing I can think of is that maybe you saw him when he still had that racy and recently-off-the-racetrack look. Plus, it's important to remember that he was a three-year-old (and certainly not fully mature) when he was retired last year.

As for smallish (your word)...I guess it's fair to say that everyone has their own idea of what a large or small horse is. That said, I would guess that Indian Ocean is approx 16-1HH (not smallish to my way of thinking)... plus he's beautifully proportioned (from my perspective).

I was very impressed when I first saw (Indian Ocean) at Bridlewood, but at the Stallion Show at OBS next to all of the other stallions, he just didn't have the presence or size that we wanted for the mare that nicked to him.

As to his presence...he strikes me in the most positive way imaginable. As to his size...to each his own; but, I must add that I find him to be outstanding.

As to the stallion show at OBS...I sense that you might have seen an abundance of stallions there that were older (and closer to full maturity) than Indian Ocean was (at the time). Again (for what it's worth), Indian Ocean was but a three-year-old last year.

I remember when Stormy Atlantic was retired to stud at Bridlewood...he was somewhat under the radar and arguably attracted little attention at the outset. I see Indian Ocean as being (among other things) more handsome and less coarse (than his sire Stormy Atlantic)...and I sense that IO is getting more (probably MUCH more) attention and support than SA did (at the outset).

I also get a sense that Bridlewood is standing behind Indian Ocean even moreso than they did Stormy Atlantic (at the outset). That said, and for what it's worth, they seem to be more the straight-forward no-nonsense stallion facility than a hype and spin machine.

As for ability...not only do I like to know that a stallion prospect excelled on the dirt (as IO did) rather than turf, but also exposed a running style such as Indian Ocean exposed. He had a real motor and could press the pace...I like that. He even broke his maiden by pressing the pace then drawing off to win (going 6 1/2 furlongs in 1:14 and change).

He also proved that he could win a graded stakes race going two turns on the dirt at a major venue (Hollywood Park in his case), as a three-year-old. There again he pressed the pace, then pulled the trigger (when asked)...taking the lead, then carrying his speed to win going a mile and a sixteenth defeating TOP company including Surf Cat (and G1 winner Buzzards Bay, who finished seven lengths behind him).

Indian Ocean is a horse that (physically) is (to my way of thinking) dead-on correct up front (take a look at those knees)...has an outstanding hind leg (take a look at those clean hocks)...has plenty of bone...a VERY good top-line...excellent proportion...a neck that sets very nicely into a sweeping shoulder...and he's handsome to boot etc etc etc. His angles are very much to my liking also...and the sires and dams' sires (both top and bottom) in his pedigree, are much to my liking also. To my way of thinking Indian Ocean is a lot of horse...standing at a very good farm...and I sense his future is VERY bright.

There hasn't been a lot of buszz about him either.

As for buzz...I've seen too many horses disappoint (or even flop) that (early on) had plenty of what might be described as good buzz. On the flip side I've seen many horses without that good buzz (or much in the way of any buzz at all) early on...succeed and/or hit it big.

Consider some of the following examples:

As for early buzz...I submit that Mr Prospector (although recognized as a brilliantly fast combs-bred racehorse), was (when retired to stud) considered by many (if not most) to be (among other things) unsound...one dimensional...and overpriced at $7,500. The early buzz (whether unkind, cutting or whatever) obviously did nothing to stop him from reaching the pinnacle of success.

And what about Northern Dancer, and some of the buzz that apparently surrounded him when he went to stud? Yes he was one heck of a racehorse...but I ask, how many times have you heard (even to this day) mention of his diminutive size? I am told that when it came to Northern Dancer, such commentary (or buzz if you will) regarding his size, was more the rule than the exception. That said, I can only imagine how questions re the merits of his sire Nearctic, further raised questions and/or planted seeds of doubt in the minds of some (if not many)...re the prospects for Northern Dancer's success as a sire. Despite his early naysayers, any negative buzz did NOT stand in the way of his GREAT accomplishments as a sire.

Fast forward to Unbridled...who arguably experienced mixed reviews (including lots of negatives re his front end) during his early years at stud. The negative buzz was loud and clear. Arguably it affected his level of support...and his stud fee was cut significantly (while at Gainesway). When he started to get superstar runners...well, the rest is history.

More recently...arguably Successful Appeal had little buzz about him (but I sensed that whatever buzz there was [during his early years at stud] leaned more in the direction of negative than positive). That is until he had a few by him that sold well, followed by some 2-yos that could not be ignored. Even when he became North America's Leading Freshman Sire, it seemed like many attempted to discount his accomplishments. Even today the buzz surrounding Successful Appeal is arguably often not the kindest, but I suggest (all things considered) he is very successful, can get quality racehorses (including around 2-turns)...plus an abundance of stakes and graded runners and winners (including a G1 winner and a first crop G1-Ky Derby 2nd). Successful Appeal was recently announced as standing for $40k in 2007. I guess it's fair to say that whatever the early buzz (for better or for worse), it did not stand in the way of his success.

And what about Songandaprayer? Arguably he was a very tough sell (during the early years) and the talk (or buzz) then seemed to range from non-existent to negative (with little if any positive). Things seemed to turn when a couple of his yearlings sold quite well...followed by some 2-yos that rang a bell...then raced, promptly getting front page attention. He stood for $10k while in Florida, and it's likely fair to say that he attracted limited outside support (until his last year in Florida prior to his move north to the bluegrass). That said, it might be a meaningful to note that there was a period when Songandaprayer was a buy two (seasons) and get one free stallion, with no takers that I am aware of (although I expect there were some). Regardless the early negatives (buzz if you will)...it is my understanding that it'll cost breeders $45k to get to him in 2007.

To this day, when his name comes up, I still hear many refer to (and sometimes still chuckle about) Saint Ballado's front end (particularly the toeing out). I would guess that the initial comments (and negative buzz if you will) re his front-end were not what his connections would have preferred, but despite it all, he was moved to Kentucky...stood for as much as $125k...and sired a number of stars, including champions Ashado and Saint Liam.

If you'd like examples of a couple of stallions that seemed to be surrounded by (at least to some degree) initial positive buzz...how about (for starters) Exploit and Silver Charm and Artax and Charismatic? I might suggest that whatever the positive buzz was, arguably it's done a 360, don't you think? So much for the positive early buzz, it certainly didn't help these guys long term.

Is there a lesson to be learned re early buzz? Maybe so...and it might be, beware the early buzz (whether positive, negative, non-existent or whatever)...it seems to offer no guarantee.

...we had issues with trying to breed to Roar of the Tiger last year (who I LOVE for one of my mares), so are reluctant to go back.

Respectfully...I see Roar of the Tiger as a VERY LARGE...unathletic looking, hulk of a horse...that (to my way of thinking) is baby huey-like. He does little to suggest (to me anyway) that he's likely to become a potential source of equine athletes in the form of top-class racehorses. You might (for starters) want to stand in front of him and watch him walk toward you...I say, OUCH. Although it's possible he might make it...I have strong reservations and serious doubts about him.

Omega Code's weanlings were supported very well at the Oct sale, but I'm concerned that it was all H&D and no outside buyers.

I agree with you that "Omega Code's weanlings were supported very well at the Oct (OBS) sale...". That said, based on what I've seen (and have heard), I am confident that the support from "outside buyers" (your words) was abundant and real.

As I've said before, I've seen quite a number of foals by Omega Code, and I sense (based on what I've seen thus far) that he could make it big-time. I also expect some of his yearlings to sell HUGE (in relation to his stud fee) next year. All that said, he does have a rather straight hindleg...plus he was strictly a sprinter. One or both of those items might prove to be unacceptable to some breeders...while others might find them appealing, or a non-issue.

I will take a look at (Indian Ocean) again this year as I did like him and Bridlewood does a super job.

I sense that Bridlewood recognizes (what I might describe as) the HUGE potential in Indian Ocean, and will handle (and support) him accordingly. I too expect they'll do a super job.

Thanks for the suggestions - we're definitely keeping our options open and will check them all out again. Might was well attend all of the stallion shows - good food and the possibility of winning a free season lol! .

I am confident that you will ultimately make stallion selections that you believe are in your (and your mares') best interest.

Whatever your final selections, I wish you success.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[witherbee]

Thanks for the reply FOS - it must have taken a while to type . Seriously though, I do appreciate the input as this is pretty new to me and I'm trying to get a feel for the market as well as learn more about nicking and pedigrees. We almost booked to Indian Ocean last year, but waited until the stallion show at OBS. I agree with you that Indian Ocean was not a mature breeding stallion, so it's tough to compare, but I was also looking at other 1st year stallions and loooking at bone more than bulk. I respectfully disagree with your assessment of Roar of the Tiger as unathletic and "baby Huey-ish" (that's funny!). I think he was very impressive and I really like the Giant's Causeway connection and his beyer figures (we're trying to put some early speed on the mare that we bred to him).

Anyway, we spoke to many people about Indian Ocean, and they just didn't seem as excited about him as we were at the time. I agree that he is very correct up front (which was a concern with the Stormy Atlantic connection), and so is our mare, so that is a plus. As for size, the mare that we nicked to him is on the smallish side, and he looked to me to be just 16h and again, not a big muscular horse. It may have been the letdown from racing, so I am anxious to see him again this year. I don't believe that any of his weanlings have sold yet - would like to see how much support he will get from both his connections and the buyers and would like to see what size his yearlings are. The fact of it is that size really helps to sell. You need the pedigree and conformation too, but it's a much harder sell with a small weanling at the level we deal in. Now, for Miss Ardent, if she nicks well to him, Indian Ocean would be fine in size because she is big and has good bone. For our smallish mare I am looking for a stallion that throws size as well as matching her in other aspects. That's why it helps to see the weanlings too.

Speaking of large weanlings - Spanish Steps, Full Mandate and Alysweep sure had some big, good looking babies at the sale! I know that size isn't everything , but when you are looking to upsize a mare, and wehn you look at the prices that the larger weanlings bring, it can be a consideration.

Unfortunately, like most folks, we are trying to get out of the starting gate fast here, so are trying to figure out whose weanlings will be hot at the next sale. Of course we also need to make sure that they'll be able to run and "make" our mares too, so it's not all about initial price. We're allso looking at running style and racing compatibility.

By the way, I am new to this forum, and have no idea who is on here (internet anonymity) so I will be a bit more careful about what I say - don't want to offend or to "bad-mouth" a stallion. I know that word of mouth can make or break and I certainly am careful about what I say - need to do the same when I type . To be honest, most of our FL stallions are pretty nice - just a matter of picking the right match and hoping that the buyers are interested.

Thanks again - nice pool of knowledgeable people here!

[casper10]

What about Concordes Tune? Sex-balanced cross of Never Bend plus The Pruner also tails to Bloodroot. Furthermore, 6x5 cross of Uvira.