Would you breed your mare to??????

[KBEquine]

The JC doesn't care who the parents are as long as both are JC registered and DNA typed.

I'm pretty sure that the way LB described it is exactly the way it would happen, especially the protests from the proposed handlers. Your stallion doesn't need a "name" for the foal to be registered. He & the mare need to be properly registered themselves. After that, it's a matter of finding someone to help them through the mating process & filling out a lot of paperwork.

[LB]

:D Again, it's all about the dineros.

LOL, it always is, in this business.

On the other hand you'd be saving a stud fee since you own the stallion. You'd just be paying a "handling fee" instead.

[Roguelet]

dray, do you have a field you can just turn them out in together? If yearling colts can time and time again figure out how to breed fillies (we've all heard those "oops" stories,) I'll bet your guy could eventually get it done all by himself... no money out to the handlers, and pasture breeding is perfectly acceptable in TBs.

[dray33]

I wish, Rog. I dream of one day owning a farm.

[Pete]

Hi Dray,

There are a lot of 'vanity' stallions in regional markets.

Complete stallions are a problem for breeding / boarding farms because they need to be segregated from all females and sometimes other males and that contribute to their higher board fees.

Ideally you'd like to find a farm that will board your stallion at a more standard rate but who has the experience and staff to breed him to your chosen mare with a seperate fee for that service.

The problem of course is finding a farm that has the experience and staff to handle horse mating that won't charge you a year round fee for that one service. Stallion, mare and humans can get seriously injured if the process isn't handled properly.

What are you going to do with the stallion after the one (1) mating? Board him on a farm for the rest of his days?

'Vanity' stallion owners (from my observations) keep them for several years, in case they 'hit' (not very likely) and most end up bringing them a mare or two a year. If it intrigued you to breed the stallion once then you'll probably do it twice (etc). It can become a debilitating expense. An owner with a national string sent 3-5 mares a year to his Vanity stallion for 5 years until he was a proven failure but carrying 20 unproductive mouths and a lot of training expense for these poor quality youngsters forced him to liquidate some of his better horses.

I'd advise thinking hard before you breed this stallion. Just because you can doesn't mean that you should. Do the math and you'll see that a 'one off' foal won't be cheap to manufacture.

If you decide to breed him then do it in a regional market where you have the potential for breeders'/owners' awards. Call the State breeding office to find out the requirements for registering a stallion in that states' program.

Regards,

Pete

[astrid st. claire]

This is just an observation, and it is not meant to garner arguements or unkind remarks.
if I was breeding, I would not use any American bred horse . I see talk of conformation, lines , winning offspring , etc. What good is the building, if the foundation is built on quick sand?
20 plus horses broke down at Arlington Race Track in Illinios last year. They want to blame the track . Perhaps. I would be far more interested in seeing their pedigrees . Ruffian, Barbaro, and Smarty Jones all had Discovery and Mr. Prospector in their pedigrees. Some winning horses had these horses, not once ,but 2,3,sometimes 4 times on both sides of the parents. On the outside, they look sound, strong shoulders ,etc. But , the internal makeup is not strong or healthy. These unseen or in some caes ignored maladies result in a beautiful horse being put down. Worse yet, the problems get passsed down into future offspring.
I can't get the images of Ruffian and Barbaro in what must have been unbelievable pain, still trying to win a race . For what ? Money. In the movie Dreamer, Kurt Russell says, that's the horse business .
How sad to have that mentality .
Alright... I would go and track down the lines of Phar Lap . I would bring in outside stock from GB, NZ, Ireland. I would refuse to use any stock that has an overuse of afore mentioned horses . It matters not, how many "winnners" that they may have produced . Winning, believe it or not isn't everything. It would be nice to see some common sense prevail for a change.
Like Marfans disease, these horses are a running time bomb. Unlike Marfans, it can be bred out, giving the horse world not only the majestic beauty that it prizes ,but a truely sound horse... inside and out.
Thankyou

[Pete]

Hi Astrid,

Welcome to the forum.

I’d like to be able to say that I felt your post to be insightful and meaningful but I didn’t.

1 - Phar Lap was a gelding.
2 - Discovery raced 63 times (won 27) and was known as the Iron Horse. He’s usually cited as a source of soundness, not the opposite.
3 - Mr. Prospector has Discovery only once in the 4th generation but he has Teddy 4x5x7.
4 - Smarty Jones wasn’t a catastrophic break down. Given his value at stud he was retired when injured.
5 - Barbaro has Mr. Prospector in his 3rd generation but Turn-To in his 4th. There’s a poster on this site who believes Turn-To to be the source for (all?) unsoundness.
6 - Ruffian had Discovery (4x5x4) but her sire, Reviewer had weak bones and is widely felt to have passed them and been a source of weak bones. Her dad is probably to blame.
7 - Discovery is proliferated in pedigrees. He’s liable to be in most sound and unsound horses.

There is a perception of unsoundness amongst many if not most people in the thoroughbred industry. Obviously you share that perception but your examples, though charged emotionally, were 30 years apart and don’t prove your point.

Why do so many perceive that the modern thoroughbred to be unsound?
1 - Shorter race careers.
2 - We see video coverage of many break downs.
3 - Uncertainty about effects of medications (call them what you will).
4 - Track conditions.

The answers
1 - There are more horses with fewer races than in the past that result in shorter careers and increased competition.
2 - Simulcast broadcasts every breakdown. Unlike in the past we see every catastrophe.
3 - Any substance that is intended to make a horse run faster than their structure is capable of or allows them to race through pain is going to cause injuries.
4 - Track surfaces are maintained for faster times, less cover and more injuries (pre-synthetic).

The easy targets are the breeders and the blood pool. I neither subscribe nor believe this since there is no basis in fact.

The most impact on the perception of unsoundness in the modern thoroughbred are:
1 - In 1950 an average horse career was @40 races. Foal crop size has grown far faster than available races so that modern horses have 40% of the race availability of those from 1950 and thus should have average careers of about 16 races. In fact it’s about 15 races.
2 - Use of the horse. Owners and trainers press young stock to perform prematurely.
3 - Intrinsic value. Horses with breeding value are retired earlier than in the past.

I believe that medications and track conditions may play a part in making injuries more devastating.

Laying the blame for perception of unsoundness at the feet of any particular blood component (like Discovery) is simply wrong. Breeders may be making too many foals but that is what the market demands. Owners that pay a lot for young stock do so usually with the intention of proving them as early as possible. Pulpit has sired several high profile colts like Tapit, Sky Mesa and Oratory that had short careers (5-6 races) but his horse’s average @16 races, slightly higher than the average. In years past might these colts been brought back to the track? It’s possible.

Mr. Prospector is perhaps the pre-eminent and most successful dirt track sire line and my empirical observation is that there are far more catastrophic injuries on dirt than on turf. Thus there is a perception that his line is less sound. Mr. Prospector and his sire line were built by the introduction (to Raise A Native) and re-addition of Teddy. Should we blame Teddy for unsoundness? The same phenomenon is occurring with Hyperion blood. Is he to blame?

When looking at a filly with weak conformation a young vet authoritatively told me that ‘we never saw horses built this badly 30 years ago’. I was told the same thing by a young vet 30 years ago.

I hate to see any horse injured and we often ask them to satisfy our ambition over their abilities but the simple facts are that blood is not to blame. I appreciate your sentiments and I hope that I don’t seem too harsh but it’s an important discussion that needs to be based on facts.

Regards,

Pete

[astrid st. claire]

My dear Pete,
I stand corrected. I truely can't help it..... I have 5x7 in the Taurean line ! 5 planets in Taurus , in the 7th House . Yes, very emotional. Not something that is a viable asset in the horse world , I am sure.
I am aware that Phar lap was gelded. I still would hunt down the line though. It hopefully is still out there.
Science however, is often wrong . I would prefer to err on the side of caution though. Call it silly, but I would insist on outside stock . That is pure intuition , not emotion .
Just a thought here. With all the meds handed out like candy these days, Has anyone ventured to inquire or ask about the side effects of the drugs used on horses ? I have a long history with doctors , they have little compunction to use a drug if it means a kickback from the pharmacutical compamies.
I wish to thank you for your insight, based on your years of experience , to be sure .
Astrid St. Claire

[xfactor fan]

Discovery must be just about everywhere. Broodmare sire to Bold Ruler and Native Dancer. So he's in Northern Dance and Secretariat and Seattle Slew. The list goes on and on.

Saw an interesting article that claims that the sales prep for young stock going through the auction ring was to blame for many of the ill in modern racing. According to the study encouraging early growth caused long lasting effects that were very difficult to overcome. Fat and glossy sells, but not so great for racing afterward. Which may explain some of the high priced duds that go through the auction ring.

I suspect that starting horses to young may be a major cause of the unsoundness.

[astrid st. claire]

Please allow me to present another suggestion. For those that I might offend, please accept my apology.
Another major factor in breeding is feeding. I have to lay this out in human aspects, for I am no expert where it comes to horses.
Prenatal care is of the utmost importance. You can have the greatest genes that God has ever created, but it is all for naught, if nutrition is ignored.
Our esteemed Scientific community has just discovered that to avoid premies, and birth defects, Folic Acid would be of help ! I don't think too much of these unmitigated fops, as you can see. But I digress. To be fair, Folic Acid has been known for a long time, it is given to the pulic at large as if it was something new.
Alright... back on track. In human prenatal care, a stupid , grossly inadiquat bottle of prenatal vitimins is thrown at the mother to be. Because of this insane idea that because he's a doctor and knows all,.She never thinks to question him. The fact is ,our doctors only have a few hours on nutrition in school. My guess is the same is true of Vets.
For strong legs and bones you need mega doses of calcium. This allows the skull to develope to its proper size alowing for the brain to develope fully. Without it, you get deformaties. You get deformed faces, that is easily seen in notable people like Angelina Joli, Halle Barry to name a couple. This gross negligence cannot be reversed .
That same attention to nutrition has to be carried through after the baby is born for the next 5 years. Also too, Americans are rushing their children into sports training at earlier ages . Bypassing childhood altogether ! The result... younger people with fractures and the like.
Put the two together and you have a recipe for disaster. What the horse world seems to be in desparate need of , is an Adelle Davis of the Horse World ! If she is out there, please step forward.
Sceince can clone cows...but they cannot come up with a cure for Laminitis ! Praytell me , why? Ah.......money. Case dismissed !!!

[habitat]

danger Will Robinson!

great post Pete!.