"Return to the sire the best blood of his dam"

[DLM]

Okay I am trying to figure this idea out. If I look at the pedigree of The Scarlett Witch .. which bloodlines would I be looking for to put her to?

Okay and this one Alittlebitofheaven .. would I take her to a Mr P son??

Or do I have this all wrong?

[Pan Zareta]

Okay I am trying to figure this idea out. If I look at the pedigree of The Scarlett Witch .. which bloodlines would I be looking for to put her to?

JMO, but I think she needs something i/b to Nasrullah, like Wheaton.

Okay and this one Alittlebitofheaven .. would I take her to a Mr P son??

The foal would be 2x3 to Mr. P. Closer than I like, but it's been known to be successful. If strong inbreeding isn't out of the question, you might have a look at Banker's Gold. The cross would be 3x3 to Mr. P., 3x4 to Nijinsky, 4x4x5 to Northern Dancer, 4x5x5 to Flaming Page, etc.

[KamiBrooks]

Not that this mating is possible, but I thought the concept that she was talking about is more like what is seen in Isitingood/The Scarlett Witch.

Is that what is meant by "return to the sire the best blood of his dam"? Of course assuming that Transworld is considered the best blood of the dame of Isitingood

Kami

[Pan Zareta]

Not that this mating is possible, but I thought the concept that she was talking about is more like what is seen in Isitingood/The Scarlett Witch.

Is that what is meant by "return to the sire the best blood of his dam"? Of course assuming that Transworld is considered the best blood of the dame of Isitingood

Yes, Isitingood/The Scarlett Witch is an excellent example of Olin Gentry's maxim - so is Banker's Gold/Alittlebitofheaven (via Nijinsky). But even OG didn't follow that rule all the time, and I was just looking at stallions that are 1)in Pennsylvania, and 2)alive.

[KamiBrooks]

I'm in no way qualified to suggest any breeding, but was just trying to make sure I understood what was meant by the phrase.

Still sorting out all these breeding theories

[DLM]

Thanks .. this is like a lesson in Greek so please bare with me ... why is Transworld considered the best? That is one piece I am having a hard time understanding ??? AND How do you find a list of the standing stallions that would be on the short list to breed her to?

Also don't know if I am putting too much into this thread or should start another. I was recently told by someone who has done well racing, that always breed for speed and size (height and substance) first. What are your thoughts on this?

[madelyn]

Height is something that should be approached with reason. There have been many tall horses who could not catch the ambulance because they were TOO tall and did not have the mechanics. Balance, stride, mechanics (hip, shoulder, short back, etc.) are very important.

Overall athleticism is key. One thing I love about out stallion, Rocking Trick, is that even though he is quite tall (16.1h) it is balanced by an overall very athletic look. He is not "leggy" nor "blocky" but fits together perfectly. His babies are definitely stamped and correct.

[Colonel]

Interesting. I'm not familiar with this, but as I interpret it (which is probably totally wrong), HIGH HAT would be the "best" active line in the mare's sire line, so using LEROIDESANIMAUX as a sire with this mare would cross the High Hat line.

Just a blind guess

[madelyn]

Does the statement apply to the stallion or the mare? In the old chauvinistic times, it was believed that the mare had very little to do with producing a good horse and it was "all about the boy."

So in this particular statement, are you looking for the best blood in the dam of a stallion? Since the mare is female, should it be in her female family? An example of this would be Yes It's True x Sunset Dancer. Sunset Dancer is tail female to Shenanigans, which is in the damline of Yes It's True.

I think it is very open to interpretation.

[Pan Zareta]

Thanks .. this is like a lesson in Greek so please bare with me ... why is Transworld considered the best? That is one piece I am having a hard time understanding ??? AND How do you find a list of the standing stallions that would be on the short list to breed her to?

'Best' is subjective. With The Scarlett Witch, Prince John, Key To The Mint, Missy Babu and her sire My Babu are some of the names that stand out in her pedigree (at least to me) in the context of 'Take back to the sire the best blood of his dam'. Something else that might be worth taking a look at is to whom the dam & 2d dam were successfully bred. TSW's dam was half to a listed stakes winner by Irish Open (still standing in Louisiana?).

For looking up one particular name in a pedigree (online), I like Brisnet's Stallion Directory. It's free, but you have to be registered (also free). BH & TTimes' directories will do searches for inbreeding, but not single occurrence.

Also don't know if I am putting too much into this thread or should start another. I was recently told by someone who has done well racing, that always breed for speed and size (height and substance) first. What are your thoughts on this?

Imho, first & foremost breed away from unsoundness. Then breed to enhance or maintain the strong points and offset the shortcomings. Beyond those broad generalities methodology depends on what you're breeding for - show ring, track, sale ring, etc.

PZ

[KamiBrooks]

DLM: I don't know that transworld is or is not the best in her sire line. I just happen to have an interest in mares from transworld, so used that as the example trying to clarify the concept for myself.

[DLM]

Kami .. thanks

All of the comments are helpful. IMO I like to see a strong female side because anyone can buy a top side.

Pan .. I fully agree to breed away from unsoundness. The breeder I referred to has been successful at breeding, racing and selling. His thoughts were that in the years he has done this he felt the two things he breeds for over and above the obvious were height and substance.

What do everyone think is the optimum height?

[DLM]

Kami .. thanks

All of the comments are helpful. IMO I like to see a strong female side because anyone can buy a top side.

Pan .. I fully agree to breed away from unsoundness. The breeder I referred to has been successful at breeding, racing and selling. His thoughts were that in the years he has done this he felt the two things he breeds for over and above the obvious were height and substance.

What do everyone think is the optimum height?

[Linda in TX]

Does the statement apply to the stallion or the mare? In the old chauvinistic times, it was believed that the mare had very little to do with producing a good horse and it was "all about the boy."

So in this particular statement, are you looking for the best blood in the dam of a stallion? Since the mare is female, should it be in her female family?

I think it is very open to interpretation.

Olin Gentry's dictum, "Return to the sire the best blood of HIS dam ("preferably," he said, "in the same generation")," applies to the distaff side of a stallion's pedigree. What he said, in essence, is the good ones get their "goodness" from whatever mom is bringing to the table and those ancestors are the ones to breed back to. (The dots don't always connect like that, of course, but they do often enough to warrant looking at a stallion's distaff side first when contemplating a mating to determine if the mare's pedigree complements his dam's side).

Olin Gentry didn't originate the idea - he just said it in such a way as to make it the most quotable.

The theory was originally put forth by C. Bruce Lowe, best known for organizing the descent of mares into Family numbers. Bruce Lowe wrote in his book, Breeding Racehorses by the Figure System: How To Breed Great Stake Horses (and Sires) by Returning Your Stallion The Best Strains of his Dam: "This is one of the most important rules to observe. It has been pretty generally recognized amongst stud masters that the best blood in the sire should be nicked; but I do not know of any writer who has distinctly laid it down as a general law that the best blood of the stallion's dam should be nicked in preference to his sire's side of pedigree table."

The operative word in Bruce Lowe's statement is "nicked." The prevalent and popular definition of "nicked" means matching the sire's sire line with the dam's sire line (like a Northern Dancer sire line stallion with a mare from the Mr. Prospector sire line). But "nicked" the way Bruce Lowe meant it is more suggestive of "whatever works more often than not," and doesn't necessarily imply inbreeding (although, Gentry's quote implies inbreeding). Variations can some into play.

In the case of the mare The Scarlett Witch, it looks like someone might have been reading Lowe's book when they planned the mating that resulted in her sire The Hague. He's inbred 4 x 4 to Hyperion and Hyperion appears on his sire's distaff side (in Transworld's pedigree). Furthermore, The Hague's dam, Our Sue by Reform, is inbred 3 x 5 to Hyperion and 4 x 4 to Mieuxce and both lines appear in the pedigree of Reform's dam.

[louis finochio]

Lets set the table in a hypo mating. The Scarlet Witch would be bred to a stallion that has had a bloodling affinity or nick with Hyperion thru Forli.

When you breed to a successful bloodling affinity that is line-bred as Linda posted with a prolific amount of crosses of Hyperion your chance of breeding the big horse would be greater than just a single cross of Hyperion.