Hypo-mating Advice - Crossing to Raise a Native

[cewright]

This may be a rookie question, if so please forgive my ignorance and inexperience. I am studying a hypo-mating for a broodmare I may buy. I would appreciate any and all comments.

The cross with my preferred stallion shows the following:

5S x 4S x 4D Raise a Native
6S x 5S x 5D x 6d Native Dancer
5S x 5D Neararctic

Some suggest RAN is a source of unsoundness. However, there have also been some memorable runners from this line. Is there a reason to avoid this level of cross breeding to RAN?

Thanks for your help!

Chuck

[fastappy]

I would focus more on the soundness of the two individuals being mated. RAN is such an influential sire it certainly is a great commodity to have. I believe as long as we're dealing with sound individuals, not too heavily muscled for the bone structure, it's a good thing. Others will differ in opinion but increasingly more successful inbreeding/linebreeding is done with RAN & his son Mr. P.

Since the sire has two copies of RAN, check his produce record for what is crossing best with him (undoubtedly he will love N.D. mares & Slew mares).

[llbean]

I depends to a great extent on the son(s) and/or daughter(s) that Raise a Native is coming through in the hypo.

Without more details there's great limitations on how much useful advice can be given you.

I agree with Fastappy that you should look up what's working with the sire.

-llbean

[jagger]

There is some indirect evidence that RAN inbreeding may not be a good plan. Pine Island was 5 x 4 x 6 to RAN with two crosses of Mr. P. While Mr. P has been an excellent sire and it may be too early to judge him, his success, when inbred in not very impressive. Roughly 60 horses have won at least one Graded Stakes when inbred to Mr. P. Northern Dancer, by comparison, has around 1000 horses who have won at least 1 graded stakes. He IS nine years older than Mr. P but had 600 or so less foals than Mr. P. Additionally, stallion breeding (mares/season) has escalated significantly during Mr. P's reign so I suspect that the total numbers of horses containing Mr. P and ND may be very close.

As mentioned above, an extremely muscular horse in proportion to his frame is probably a recipe for disaster.

Also, when considering a Mr. P inbreeding, the conduits are extremely important. Some conduits have been very successful while others have had NO success at all. Fappiano leads the way as the most successful conduit. Until recently, it was thought that "sex balanced" inbreeding was the best but at least in the case of Mr. P (and also ND), the best possible combination is son x son. The least, and very unsuccessful, is daughter to daughter.

This and lots more neat information is available at your fingertips with the help of a neat tool, Goldmine.

[camohn]

In the case of Mr. P specifically I am not his biggest fan but several of the Mr.P's I did like had Crimson Satan in the damline.
I like the correctness of Innkeeper and he is Secretariat/Northern D with the RAN. http://www.pedigreequery.com/innkeeper
This guy is not a racehorse:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/gooree+lane (showhorse) but an example of a nice correct looking Mr.P line horse for the sake of argument of "what crosses well on the RAN legs for soundness".

[pembroke]

I agree with Jagger. hypo-mating cannot tell you about successful crosses and what to stay away from. Talk to a professional. Any of them. Their advice is invaluable. (www.buildabetterracehorse.com is a good one)

[jagger]

Gooree Lane's pedigree looks a lot like Quiet American. He has Dr. Fager on top and bottom. He is by Cahill Road, Fappiano's son, who is also a full brother of Unbridled. If you had a Mr. P mare, or a mare with Mr. P in the pedigree, Gooree Lane would be a good sire, just based on Fappiano. There would be many other things to consider, obviously. I am pretty sure that of the 55 to 60 horses that have won at least one Graded Stakes, Fappiano appeared on one side or the other 18 times. No other Mr. P son approaches this success. There probably would have been quite a few more had Fappiano not died so early.

[fastappy]

[quote="cewright"]This may be a rookie question, if so please forgive my ignorance and inexperience. I am studying a hypo-mating for a broodmare I may buy. I would appreciate any and all comments.

The cross with my preferred stallion shows the following:

5S x 4S x 4D Raise a Native
6S x 5S x 5D x 6d Native Dancer
5S x 5D Neararctic

Some suggest RAN is a source of unsoundness. However, there have also been some memorable runners from this line. Is there a reason to avoid this level of cross breeding to RAN?

Thanks for your help!

Chuck[/quote]

Latent Heat won the G1 Malibu today! He is a Juddmonte bred who's 5S x 4D to RAN & 4s x 4d to Buckpasser (which is a big plus).

[cewright]

Thanks to all for your comments. I have gone ahead and purchased the mare and she is now in my barn.. She is by Affirmed out of a Secretariat mare. She is very correct. The RAN is expressed through Exclusive Native, the sire of Affirmed. The sire I am considering is Real Quiet. RAN is expressed through Fappiano and through Meadow Blue (by RAN), the maternal granddam of Real Quiet.

This is my first effort at TB breeding. Goal is breed to race. I am expecting a later maturing horse that has a good balance of stamina and speed. If it doesn't work out as a runner I can always use it as a hunter.

GSV of the prospective foal = 64.75.
Conduit Mare Profile = 3-10-1-9-4 Speed = 13 Stamina = 13 Index = 0.94 Triads = 14-20-14
DP = 8-7-11-0-0 (26) DI = 3.73 CD = 0.88;

I believe (or hope) there is also a good balance of dirt and turf here as well. x-factor gurus may notice some interesting possibilities with the War Admiral heart. I know the odds are long in producing a successful runner but such is the stuff that dreams are made of.

Regards

Chuck

[fastappy]

Just for kicks, hypo mate her with Minister's Wild Cat ('A' nick / proven cross). Good luck on your breeding. Affirmed sure is a nice broodmare sire (6% SWs - AEI 1.71 vs 1.56)!

[Hold Your Peace]

5x4x4 to Raise A Native isn't that close, I wouldn't worry about it.

As to inbreeding to Mr. Prospector, there have been plenty of successful runners inbred to Mr. Prospector and while I wouldn't neccessarily go out of my way to try and inbreed to Mr. Prospector I wouldn't let it back me off a mating I otherwise liked.

Examples (not a complete or exhaustive list or anything) of horses inbred to Mr. Prospector:

Grade I winners:

Flower Alley 3Sx3S
Pleasant Home 2Sx4D
Strategic Maneuver 3Sx3S
Roman Ruler 2Sx4D
El Corredor 3Sx4D
Tapit 3Dx4S
Volponi 3Sx4D
WhyWhyWhy 3Sx4S
Declan's Moon 3Dx4S
Shadow Cast 2Sx4D

Others:

Limehouse 3Sx3D
Sharp Humor 3Sx4S
Forest Music 4Sx3S
Read The Footnotes 3Sx4D
Invisible Ink 3Sx3S
Kid Grindstone 4Sx3S

I think part of the reason there are a lot more graded stakes winners inbred to Northern Dancer than Mr. Prospector is because so many of those stakes winners inbred to Northern Dancer were in Europe and it got to the point in Europe that it seemed like everything had Northern Dancer in it so coincedentally there were a ton of horses inbred to Northern Dancer over there.

In the next few years I think you're going to see a lot more horses inbred to Mr. Prospector here in the US, not because someone discovered it was a great idea or anything, but just because there are so many top stallions and mares around these days with Mr. Prospector in them.

[ak1]

Congrats on your purchase! Affirmed is a lovely broodmare sire. Smarten is another Mid-Atlantic stallion whose blood crossed well with Mr Prospector and Northern Dancer. He has since passed but he does have a son standing in PA, Smart Guy, who is quite a looker and a stakes winner. Someone on this board has ties/represents him, BargainBlueBlood maybe, not entirely sure.

[fastappy]

We can add Corinthian to the list & he throughly trounced Belmont winner Jazil by 10 at Gulfstream yesterday.

[henthorn]

Did I miss the name of your mare? What about state-bred incentive programs?

[cewright]

Henthorn

No you did not miss my mare's name. I didn't post it as I did not actually own her when this thread started. I do own her now. Her name is Talking Girl (1994 mare by Affirmed out of Secretaire by Secretariat). She does not have a very good production record (which is probably why she was available and why I could afford her). Hopefully I can change that.

I have finalized my plans and have a signed contract for a season to Real Quiet. I plan to breed to race. While RQ does not seem to be a very commercial sire but he has thrown some big horses like Pussycat Doll, Wonder Lady Anne L, Midnight Lute, etc. so maybe the market for his foals will improve. In my very humble opinion, he does seem to match up well with my mare.

As far as state programs, I am probably committed to PA for now. According to my friends up there, horses will be running for $400,000/day starting next year with the start of the VLT funding. The PA breeders program will add up to 30%. We will see if this comes true. The other program I am looking at is the Louisiana program. The big attraction for this program is they pay on almost all races, not just in state races.

Regards

Chuck