Pedigree Query

Im trying to plan a mating for Crown Of Spring (Chief's Crown ex Spring Flight)

Shes had 2 foals so far to race one by Kris S the other by Singspiel, both have been pretty useless on the track.

She throws very small foals.

Her yearling is by Royal Applause and shes in foal to Dubai Destination.

The current shortlist for her is Dubawi, With Approval and Pivotal.

Im quite happy to go back to the drawing board, but would like some advise on what Cheif's Crown mares cross best with.

Shes UK based.

To be honest, I dont know what crosses or nicks best with Chief's Crown but I would like to add you cant go wrong with With Approval.

He can get you runners out of mares who never were able to produce runners and they're verstile and will do very well in Europe.

Also, he's turning into a powerhouse broodmare sire. Hope for a filly and have fun for years!

Hello,
I will throw in my two cents; I believe that your best bet would be a son of Mr. Prospector out of a Seattle Slew mare. Check your Weatherbys Stud Book to see if such a horse stands in the UK.
Brian

Interesting observation Brian. When I checked the Goldmine graded winners from Chief's Crown as the dam sire, Mr. P leads the way with Slew right behind. Duplicating Bold Ruler or Nasrullah also seemed to work well.

MillyMix wrote:Shes had 2 foals so far to race one by Kris S the other by Singspiel, both have been pretty useless on the track.

Are you sure they were given a good an honest chance? Were the horses the problem or were the circumstances the problem?

Elles wrote:

MillyMix wrote:Shes had 2 foals so far to race one by Kris S the other by Singspiel, both have been pretty useless on the track.

Are you sure they were given a good an honest chance? Were the horses the problem or were the circumstances the problem?

Im pretty sure that neither of them had a fair crack. The Kris S filly was run once on the turf then switched to the AW. All her races were over 5 or 6 F. She was then entered in a claiming race by and was claimed.

The Singspiel has only raced twice, both times on the AW and in 6F races.

I have looked through the stallion book and there doesn't appear to be a Mr Prospector son with Seattle Slew as the damsire in the UK.

So nobody can honestly say that the horses were no good because it is very likely that they were mismanaged or at least not really given a chance.

Chief's Crown has been a good broodmare sire for the Roberto line, Mr. P, and Seattle Slew, as of 2004 stats. I don't know about later racing. And descendants of Never Bend have been useful. So among those mentioned, I like Dubawi the best. Or perhaps a son or grandson of Roberto.

For my two cents, a stallion that has Sir Gaylord blood. So you can double-up on "Somethingroyal".

Have you considered Red Ransom or Kris Kin?

Keith

Milly Mix, asking this board for pedigree advice and maybe even info on stallions usually does provide quality information. However in many cases asking us for mating advice is pretty much a complete waste of time and energy.

Why? Usually we don't know your mare’s conformation, her weaknesses, and her strengths. We don't know what types of foals she throws or what their issues may be. We also have very little other info to go on, other than info derived from databases and the internet, which often is somewhat unreliable or misleading.

Based on some more recent on-track success, logic would hold that perhaps you should consider an Unbridled-line stallion. My guess is that many of the Chief's Crown mares might need the size which comes with this line. However, I think that helps you very little. (I don’t imagine you have many quality Unbridleds in the UK… and breeders in the UK seem to be a little more concerned with number of starts).

Of course, it is always advisable to suggest a Mr. P line stallion... they only make up about 1/2 of the stallions in North America. You can be wrong and still right... or right and still wrong.

As for Chief's Crown... I love him as a broodmare sire. I owned two, one I considered my best, the other I did not regard as highly (until I saw her last foal she had for us). However, they are a tricky bunch.

The first Chief's Crown mare was out of a Vaguely Noble mare. She was raced exclusively in Europe, was stakes placed, carried weight and improved with distance. Her best foal was out of Honour and Glory. This foal finished 4th in the Norfolk Stakes (behind Street Cry), hit a wall at three, yet still ran out $170,000 or so. She currently has a very, very nice More Than Ready filly in training at Newmarket. This mare had decent size, classic conformation, and needed an influx of speed, (at least for North American racing). She did not need size and because she wasn’t “quarter-horsey”, (and did not seem to throw that direction), I wasn’t worried about bone. While I wanted speed, I am not sure a heavily muscled quarter-horse type would have worked. There were some types which physically just would not have made sense.

I did send her to Mizzen Mast because I like the horse and liked some things based on pedigree, conformation, and explosiveness he demonstrated in his races. The Mizzen Mast mating was a commercially-doomed fiasco from the start, (and soon after we bred to him, I first heard some of the rumors surrounding his on-track success, which was leading some to predict his failure at stud). No matter, I liked our foal, and will be interested to see how he turns out.

The second Chief's Crown mare was out of a General Assembly mare. This mare was sent to France at 2, dumped in a stakes race at first asking, finished 6th of 16, got hurt, was returned to the States and made a broodmare. She failed when bred with King of Kings, and Quest for Fame. Given that she is 3 x 3 to Secretariat, one would expect her to have a fantastic shoulder and solid build, which she did. I sent her to More Than Ready, unfortunately she aborted. I now don't think that was a "proper" mating for her. She needed something different.

Since she was somewhat at the bottom of my list, I didn't wish to pump much in the way of fees into her. I sent her to Artax. Her first foal was nice enough for me to send her a second time. Her second Artax foal was spectacular (he was the top selling Artax yearling last year). Of course, he is massive and powerful, definitely not the type which I would imagine doing well on turf and at a distance. If I still had her, I probably would try to mate her to something with good bone and some size, but similar in conformation and build.

Anyway, these mares had different qualities, different attributes, and decidedly different conformation. That is what you must make your decision on.

Based on your mare’s pedigree, Chief's Crown out of a Miswaki mare, I think it understandable that she would have small foals. I also can understand your frustration with the training of the first two. I have been of the opinion that Chief’s Crown tends to pass some stamina, although many don’t have “that” look. I don’t think many people say, “…oh, Chief’s Crown… should be able to get a mile plus”. However, perhaps the first foals had something limiting them to the shorter distance (if it were me, I would be trying to find out if they had breathing concerns… this could greatly influence your future breeding decisions).

I do really like the Dubai Destination mating, based on pedigree and some things you have said.

Of your three choices, With Approval, Pivotal, and Dubawi, I rather like Dubawi on paper. Size might be a concern... but size really matters most in the sales ring... it is easier to keep a good small horse sound than a larger horse. It is up to you whether his conformation and strengths make sense with your mare.

Of course, I have always had a soft spot for With Approval, he is a nice stallion. His foals didn't sell well here in the States, he probably didn't get the right kind of mares, and, of course, we don't seem to value stamina or turf ability. He does have a lot to offer, especially at his fee, which I imagine is much less than Dubawi. You probably cannot go very wrong with him, unless you want to sell one.

I think the genetics are there. I think you’ll find success, however you may just need to keep “adjusting” the recipe until you find the right mix. And, trust me, it will be YOU who finds the right mix.

Okay, enough of my ramblings… good luck and let us know what you choose. And, especially let us know how that Dubai Destination looks!

I would go to With Approval, I have it on good authority, also Millymix you should go Generous

Have you considered Domedriver? His first foals look exceptional. Good conduit profile with the hypo mating.

Bill

KAL wrote: I have been of the opinion that Chief’s Crown tends to pass some stamina, although many don’t have “that” look. I don’t think many people say, “…oh, Chief’s Crown… should be able to get a mile plus”.!

Steve Roman has classified Chief's Crown as a split Intermediate/Solid chef-de-race and in so doing writes:

Based on over 70 North American open stakes races in which Chief's Crown is the sire, broodmare sire or paternal grandsire, their average winning distance (AWD) is a long 9.03 furlongs. As a direct sire his AWD is surpassed by only four other sires of North American stakes winners since 1983, Sadler's Wells, Persian Bold, Alleged and His Majesty.

As a broodmare sire his position as a stamina source is not quite as compelling, although his broodmare sire AWD is about the same as Classic/Solid chef-de-race Nijinsky II and Classic/Professional chef-de-race Ribot.

Thirty-five percent of his descendants' stakes wins have been on grass, significantly higher than the average of 28%. Eighty-seven percent have come at a mile or more, far greater than the average of 68%. An exceptional 25% of those stakes wins have been at 10 furlongs or longer.

For the full explanation of Roman's reasoning, go here: http://chef-de-race.com/dosage/chefs-de ... _crown.htm