Breeding sheds' Open...Opinions Needed !

[johnrr88]

Hello All:
My good mare is open and I can probably breed her next week. After much contemplation I want to breed to a stallion that is:
1. "proven"
2. fee range 15-25
3. Tendency towards medium sized , balanced foals (this mare tends to throw big ones!)
4. Some historical ability to produce a two year old runner

Mare was what they called a "freak": a queen sized front running 2 y/o , very fast out of the gate, who was G2 placed. Never Out , ex Take Me Out, 1999. Her first foal (Langfuhr) will be an FTS at Gulfstream on the grass next Monday.

After much consideration I have narrowed it down to three:
1.Aptitude
2. Holy Bull (yes, I know he's not "commercial" or a producer of 2 year olds....but the match up looks excellent a' la Giacomo)
3.Dehere

I basically breed to race. That may change later. Right now I want the best racehorse I can build within my resources.Yes, I looked for a son of Storm Cat but I couldnt really find one matching my criteria

All opinions appreciated. Good luck to all,best wishes, John

[KAL]

Great mare! That wasn't just a Gr. II she lost, it was a very special Gr. II and she got beat by a monster with, perhaps, one of that monster's best efforts. Court did give her a chance... but, just too much of TCL. Of course, the track was playing in your gal's favor. I saw your mare on the backside and thought she was a 3 yr. old... big impressive gal, looked just as impressive in the paddock.

Not surprised she throws big foals. Too bad Carson City died... I would have loved to have seen a foal of that mating.

What happened to your critter after her 2 yr. old campaign? It seems like I remember she had some type of injury and never really made it back... I say this because I remember thinking, "... guess she was just too much for her body at such an early age...".

Interesting thought sending her to Dehere... kinda' "if you can't beat them join them". I am not sure I like him with her... some of his foals can be light-boned, which definitely won't work with her. Also, I am not a fan of Ashford and the numbers they breed. I have heard several complaints about difficulties getting "dates" because of these numbers. I'd hate to see you lose some time. However, if you use him and get a good one, let us know, it should be a monster of a 2 yr. old.

I'd toss Aptitude.

I do like Holy Bull. In fact, like him a lot. Of those presented, I'd probably go with him. But, it is close with Dehere.

However, I think, with this mare, you should be able to get to some slightly better considered stallions.

I think you might be able to find special considerations given to such stallions as: Gulch, Cozzene, and possibly Silver Deputy, El Corredor, and Smoke Glacken.

I'd call the farm, or check with Peter Pegg, or Bob McCann (McCann Bloodstock), I've used both and had good luck.

Disclaimer...
No, I haven't given a close look at pedigrees to see if they match... let someone else do that. These just "came" to me based on the mare, her pedigree and my rather selective memory. I also know that Cozzene won't get you a two yr. old... but he is COZZENE.

[hpkingjr]

Based on the price range you listed, I like Alphabet Soup. he gives some very interesting linebreeding numbers starting out with 4 strains of Ribot.

RIBOT 4S x 5D x 7D x 7D
HAIL TO REASON 5D x 6D x 6D
PRINCEQUILLO 5S x 7s x 7d x 7D
TURN-TO 6S x 6D x 7D x 7D
RAISE A NATIVE 5D x 6d

Soup improves his mares and as the previous post encouraged Cozzene( who I also like), his son might do as well.

[geowarrior]

Smoke Glacken might give you the relatively compact foal you want. A hypo with him improves the foal's gsv over the mare's and also preserves her good stamina triad in the mare conduit profile. You get a 3x4 to Mr. P. although it's not the most successful Mr. P. inbreeding. Smoke Glacken with his Grey Dawn influence can sire good sound progeny and he can sire longer distance runners. His best was the filly Smoke 'n Frolic who ran at longer distances. He isn't panning out so far as a broodmare sire, and I have heard that his male offspring can be a bit studdish, but as a breed to race sire in your price range I'd give him a look. For breeding soundness into progeny I like him better overall than Holy Bull, although Giacomo did pretty well racing on.

[henthorn]

Hi, John. I would definitely recommend using a good bloodstock advisor, since you're spending a lot of money and have a very nice mare. Often they have "in's" with several stud farms and can get special considerations on the breeding contracts, price, terms. And they can help you choose a compatible pedigree/body type/racing style for your lady.

I wish you well. I've sent you a Private Message (PM).

[johnrr88]

Thank you all.
I'v e looked at every stallion mentioned here. Smoke Glacken , I love but I'm wary of the 3x4 Mr P. Cozzene, yes, but too expensive and I can forget the precocious foal (maybe I'd better forget about that anyway !).

Loved the comment and insight about Dehere (the sire connection to Take Charge Lady) who swiped the Alcibiades from my mare in 2001 ! It gets better and more ironic though: her first foal (a Langfuhr filly) is now with kenny McPeek (TCL's trainer)...and will make her first start on Monday. But Dehere was not one of my choices based on "karma". I've always liked him and have been looking at him since he returned from Japan. Was a great 2 year old and can sire class.

Never Out was too big for her own good and she was started way too early...but had a huge stride and was a stunning 2y/o. She developed an osselet after the Alcibiades so we elected not to go on to the BC at Belmont. She never really came back , or in retrospect, maybe her class of fillies just caught up with her as so often happens to brilliant two year olds in their 3 year old year.

there are alot of ways to go with this mare..this year I'll probably go to "the Bull"...I would ve tried Maria's Mon if the fee wasnt sky high. Pleasantly perfect is also available , a beautiful pedigree match , but i'm scared of getting a monster sized foal.

[parsixfarms]

I like Holy Bull a lot (in fact, I'm probably going to send one of my mares to him), but if the concern is a big foal, then he may not be the sire that you want. He tends to throw good size foals in his own right.

[horsenuts]

Hello All:
My good mare is open and I can probably breed her next week. After much contemplation I want to breed to a stallion that is:
1. "proven"
2. fee range 15-25
3. Tendency towards medium sized , balanced foals (this mare tends to throw big ones!)
4. Some historical ability to produce a two year old runner

Mare was what they called a "freak": a queen sized front running 2 y/o , very fast out of the gate, who was G2 placed. Never Out , ex Take Me Out, 1999. Her first foal (Langfuhr) will be an FTS at Gulfstream on the grass next Monday.

After much consideration I have narrowed it down to three:
1.Aptitude
2. Holy Bull (yes, I know he's not "commercial" or a producer of 2 year olds....but the match up looks excellent a' la Giacomo)
3.Dehere

I basically breed to race. That may change later. Right now I want the best racehorse I can build within my resources.Yes, I looked for a son of Storm Cat but I couldnt really find one matching my criteria

Don't know your mares exact breeding but for that price range don't exclude Silver Deputy at $30,000(they may even deal a bit off that price). Also, consider Quiet American at $20,000 as he is proving to be an OUTSTANDING broodmare sire(Bernardini/Saint Liam etc.) And Dehere is nice as well. Good luck.

All opinions appreciated. Good luck to all,best wishes, John

[FOS]

hi johnrr88

I for one would recommend that you pass on Aptitude...as for Dehere, I would suggest that you contact Ashford and find out why his book was reduced DURING the 2006 breeding season. I would venture a guess that he might have experienced some breeding related issue...hmmm.

That said...of the three (Aptitude, Dehere and Holy Bull) Holy Bull might be interesting.

All that aside for a moment...you wrote "Yes I looked for a son of Storm Cat but I couldnt really find one matching my criteria"

With that in mind, if you might consider loosening the purse-strings just a tad (maybe to the tune of an extra $5k) I might suggest that you strongly consider Stormy Atlantic (at $30k). To my way of thinking he's earned his way up the ladder and it would not surprise me to see his stud fee in the $50k to $75k range...sooner rather than later.

I sense that his future is VERY bright; and at some point, seeing him stand for $100k or more would not surprise me at all.

Best of luck with your fine mare.

Respectfully

[Rokeby Forever]

With the 3X to Hail To Reason in the family, why not consider a sire with Buckpasser in the family? You CAN'T beat that cross, can you?

[johnrr88]

FOS:

I do like Stormy Atlantic, of course. In truth, i should have gone that way last year. Super linebreeding matchup for those who rely and believe .

Question...why the quick dismissal of Aptitude? Is it a simple issue of him constituting "underbreeding" for the likes of her, in your opinion? He is, after all, very heavy in Buckpasser, which relates to Rokeby's comment following yours. I do appreciate the observation.JOHN

[KAL]

Actually, I think you can get to Cozzene for under $25,000 (actually, I know of a season recently sold for $20 or $21,000). I also think there are some "deals" to be had with Silver Deputy which might put him in your price range... and she warrants the consideration.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the 3 x 4 to Mr. P., unless both parents are already demonstrating some crookedness, and from what I remember the Smoke Glackens are pretty solid... and I don't remember your mare being distinctly ugly up front... although my memory fades and I am sure she wasn't exactly standing still for conformation photos.

There have been several successful horses with 3 x 4 to Mr. P. and / or Northern Dancer. I'm not crazy about things much closer, but this wouldn't bother me, nor do I think it would bother many. Bothers me even less since it is through her dam side and his sire side... what do they call that version of linebreeding? My memory for such terms fades.

[Elles]

Sex balanced?

[stlouiskid]

I love Aptitude, several positive things with him, he has done very well with large mares. At 20K he is a bargain I believe, he has had a potential derby trail horse both years he has had 3 year old crops.
Another plus is they will only breed him to probably at most 80 mares this spring.
If he continues to develop as a sire you will never see him at this fee again.
I also have always liked Dehere, feel he is underated.
Not a big Holy Bull fan, just don't thinks he moves up his mares much.

[Maven]

Dehere is one of the safest bets and bargains in Kentucky. His daughters are also turning into VERY GOOD producers!