Pedigree Query

Are there any know problems with Broad Brush line=breeding, or maybe it's Broad Brush in-breeding?

Is 2S X 3D to Broad Brush too close?/

griff

To me the 2X3 is ok if the traits you are looking far are present in both the sire and dam. Breeding a bad Broad Brush to a bad Broad Brush will pretty much guarantee a bad inbred Broad Brush.

He himself was 3x3 to Turn To, and that's about as close an inbreeding as I would tolerate.

Roger is right on in saying that the individual physical matches should be a strong consideration. As pointed out, Broad Brush is 3x3 to Turn-To, who in turn is 3x3 to Pharos who in turn is 4x3 to St Simon. So inbreeding to Broad Brush would also intensify those other inbred horses.

Bill

I've been thinking about that inbreeding to Turn-to who was known as an unsound sire. I really would want to make sure everyone in the pedigree was sound.

I really question Turn-To being a source of unsoundness. His most notable descendents, Hail to Reason, Best Turn (sire of Cox's Ridge), and Sir Gaylord are all considered sources of soundness. More to the point, Turn-To is a very good linebreeding candidate, and most of the good horses I can think of who are linebred to him are sound and pass on soundness. Broad Brush is one of them.

Hail to Reason is usually touted as a seriously unsound horse who broke down early, but he broke down after 18 starts at 2. You're hard pressed to find any horses nowadays who make 18 starts in their 2yo season.

Turn-to's get averaged something like 7 life time starts, if memory still serves me. I think you are wrong about Sir Gaylord and Best Turn. Best Turn I think was a very big old horse whose best 3or4 offspring were sound and I guess since those are the ones who carry his name in modern pedigrees and that would allow one to call him sound.
The fact that there are sound Turn-to lines to inbreed too is the reason I said in the earlier post to pick the good ones.
Turn-to only had 8 (very successful) starts. Sir Gaylord and First Landing broke down eary in their short careers. My point is there is a lot unsoundness in this line and one should be aware of that fact before inbreeding to him.

And yet he sired Broad Brush, know as a stallion who threw very sound individuals. And looking closely at many of BB'ss top performers, BROAD APPEAL, INCLUDE (4x4x4), FARDA AMIGA, QUEST STAR, MONGOOSE (4x4x4), many more have benefited by adding a bit of Turn To on the Dam side.

Broad Brush's Turn-to lines come from grand dams. His sire Ack Ack was a sound horse and his dam's dam a daughter of Turn-to was very sound. One should only look to the sound lines if they inbreed to him.

I've noticed Ack Ack's sire, Armageddon, seems to appear in the pedigree of a number of sound horses with many starts.

I don't know if it is coincidence or not, however.

I read somewhere that Revoked (the damsire of Battle Joined) is a source of soundness. Look at the race records of this offspiring on pedigreequery.

First Landing 37 starts 19 9 2 $779,557. get averaged 24 per runner 70-79. Sir Gaylord 18 starts 10 0 4 $237,404. get averaged 17 per runner 70-79. Best Turn 28 starts 15 5 2 $270,339. progeny averaged 26 starts per runner 70-79. Hail To Reason's averaged 24. Turn To's averaged 26 starts 70-79. Source Blood Horse soundness study "Losing The Iron Horse?"

What about temperament? Turn-To, Ack Ack, Broad Brush? Nasty or nice. Turn-To's grandsons, Halo and Roberto by Hail To Reason, either were or have sired a lot of really mean horses. St. Simon was a snake. Does the Ack Ack make a difference? I've heard Concern is a bastard.

I can tell you from experience, the Broad Brush's I have spent time with have been classy and absolutely pleasant. BRUSHED BAYOU and her groom would take mid-day naps together, in the stall. Never heard that about Concern... interesting.

You're hard pressed to find any horses nowadays who make 18 starts in their 2yo season.

...or their career.